Author Topic: [suggestion]League/Cup prizes should reflect the competitiveness of their nation  (Read 13649 times)

Brian Clough

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I have noticed that there is a "perverse incentive" for new users from nations with competitive leagues to register in a nation with much less competition. While against the rules, strictly speaking, is there any way we can enforce it? Unless there is a way to ensure that a new user cannot join any nation other than the one they are registering in, there should be some mechanism to make this practice less tempting in overcrowded (I mean competitive) nations.

Additionally, why should players in a tiny nation with only one or two leagues be competing for the same prize (1,000,000 G) as a nation like Thailand with 7+ leagues, and 100X as many users?

I think that the prize money available for winning a league or cup should depend on the number of leagues in the nation. One option would have the first league filling the bottom "tier" in the prize table in the Game Manual. When a second league is formed, the top level moves up one tier, and so on until 7 or more leagues are formed, when the top league gets the top tier. The cup prize money = 1.5 x the highest league prize, like this:
# leagues        example          league top prize            cup prize
1                          COK                 100,000 G             150,000 G
2                          ALG                  150,000 G             225,000 G
3                          GER                 200,000 G             300,000 G
4                          FRA                  250,000 G            325,000 G
5                          ENG                 350,000 G             525,000 G
6                            ?                   550,000 G             825,000 G
7+                        THA                1,000,000 G           1,500,000 G

However, IMHO, I'd like to see this implemented with higher values across the board, so leagues with 3 or 4 levels with active users would still compete for 1 million G (1.5 million G in cup). That way, only very small leagues would be stuck with less to play for (which have very few users who might complain). To be realistic, I'd suggest that the league prize for nations with 7+ leagues should be around 3 million G for league and 4.5 million G for the cup. Compare with the English FA cup, worth almost 4 million Euros.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 06:46:13 PM by Champione »
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gabrielis

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Don't you think about posting all yours ideas in 1 topic?

This would be unfare and would make thai top level teams more decent camparing to other countries top level teams. Football is more popular in Europe/S.America so its logic that fans would pay more to see their lovely teams, so we should get more G from matches then thai managers

SeppIbra

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I think it is unfair because it could be an advantage for thai teams (according to your example) on Continental competitions (WCL for example) against the other teams. I think it should remain so

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Harper

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Yeah but it's annoying too when player has chosen weak league from not so popular country and he easy win all matches; he earn so much money cause he win vs bots.

So i think idea is not that bad, but it should be something like:

Group 1 (for example 4 best leagues)
- Thailand
- Romania
- Italy
- Poland

Group 2
- blablala, etc.
The Magpies

Kr10s

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Don't you think about posting all yours ideas in 1 topic?

It's not possible, there's a maximum 20.000 characters per message lol

Leave things the way they are, we already have enough differences between older players and those joined 5 or 6 months ago (placed in C or lower divisions, facing unactive/bot managers) and couldn't be promoted thank to a completely ramdom match engine 1.0..
Making another gap between different countries would make things even more unfair.
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Brian Clough

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Don't you think about posting all yours ideas in 1 topic?
Does admin have time to read every forum thread?

This would be unfare and would make thai top level teams more decent camparing to other countries top level teams. Football is more popular in Europe/S.America so its logic that fans would pay more to see their lovely teams, so we should get more G from matches then thai managers

More unfair than foreigners crowding into smaller leagues for the prize money? SOMETHING needs to keep us all honest or else we might as well quit using real nations all together. Might as well use fictional ones, like Mordor or Prelandria or Narnia. ::)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 08:12:24 PM by Champione »
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intervention

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Lol, well for a start... playing football in mordor is just silly.. narnia on the other hand could be pretty cool  ;)

I agree, smaller leagues should have smaller rewards!

Like in real life, if your league is unknown do you earn the same as in a league like the premiership??!! Nooooo you dont, is simple  :)

As for the effect it will have on the international scale, it is the same again... this is why, every team across the world is at a different level or their international stars move to more competitive leagues!!

The idea here clearly is not to restrict foreign football players joining other nations leagues, but to entice managers to go for the bigger rewards in the bigger leagues or to remain within their own nations league... the latter of which would not happen under this system :)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 03:24:57 PM by intervention »
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SeppIbra

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Yeah but it's annoying too when player has chosen weak league from not so popular country and he easy win all matches; he earn so much money cause he win vs bots.

Also you are right.. So on each league prize could be reduced by a little sum of money for each bot or inactive team. For example: X is 1# on top level and in this league there are 3 bots and 2 inactive teams. -50.000 per inactive team and -70.000 per bot team. So this is the total prize for X team: 1.000.000 - 35.000 x 2 - 50.000 x 3 = 780.000 G.
What do you think?

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intervention

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Ah, so the more active players in each league the greater the reward... sounds ok, but...

This would mean that managers in lower leagues full of bots will gain next to nothing even if they are in one of the most competitive countries  :(

As a result, would it be better to work your way up from the english E division... earning next to nothing? Or join a smaller country, be at the top... winning trophies but earning next to nothing?

In a couple of seasons, if the admin plans for lowering innactive and bot managers work, then something like this may then work... the higher you go the more active managers there are so the more you earn in bigger countries and less so in smaller countries  ;)

BUT... you end up with the same problem.. top level small country managers earning the same/similar to top level big country managers  ??? lol
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SeppIbra

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Ah, so the more active players in each league the greater the reward... sounds ok, but...

This would mean that managers in lower leagues full of bots will gain next to nothing even if they are in one of the most competitive countries  :(

You are right, but it could be possible to impose a limit of penalty on final award. Example: the penalty can't be greater then 50% of the total award, So if there are 14 bot teams, if the penalty sum should be very high, total prize can't fall below 500.000G (If for example we talk about top level).

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gabrielis

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Why any active manager should get penalty becouse this game isn't equaly popular in all countries? i should get 500k instead of 1mln becouse new teams goes to lower divisions or they stop playing. I would like to move to more active country if i want to get more money

intervention

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Yes, that would work  :)

However, that would mean that a manager who picks a country with (lets say) just them and a load of bots will get the same reward as a manager in a league with four other active managers.

So it wont actually resolve the issue of bigger countries earning more or the same as smaller ones  :(

Yet by having a reward structure Champione proposed would provide this! Having the bot and inactive deduction would be great to couple with that structure... but could not stand alone.

Neither of these however would resolve the original issue of managers choosing to lie about their nationality as to gain entery into a different nations leagues lol
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Brian Clough

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Neither of these however would resolve the original issue of managers choosing to lie about their nationality as to gain entery into a different nations leagues lol

Maybe, maybe not. One thing is for sure, it would remove the incentive to lie about nationality to join a less competitive league playing for the same prize money. Of course, it might result in some new users joining a MORE competitive league if they think theirs will take forever to grow big enough. But more competition is good, right?
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intervention

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And that is exactly what will happen :)!!

But then ethically is it more or less 'right' to move to a harder country for more money than it is to move to a smaller country for the same money?

Although this situation wont get resolved i still think both structures combined are a great idea!  ;)
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Brian Clough

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And that is exactly what will happen :)!!

But then ethically is it more or less 'right' to move to a harder country for more money than it is to move to a smaller country for the same money?

Although this situation wont get resolved i still think both structures combined are a great idea!  ;)
For me it's not an ethical question at all. Unlike the way it currently is, what I've suggested doesn't provide any unfairly quick and easy ways to the big money, which is the ultimate problem IMHO.

However, when someone finds their team atop a small league for a few seasons, they would probably want to join a larger one. The question then becomes whether we should (or can) allow a team to switch leagues or (even better) allow geographically adjacent nations with 3 or fewer levels to merge their leagues together, which is not unheard of in TRW (Wales in the English FA, Canada in the U.S. MLS, etc.).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 11:14:30 PM by Champione »
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intervention

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Totally agree... combining the smaller countries within a certain area, implementing the original reward table you suggested AND making deductions for bots and inactives would be brilliant combined!!
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gabrielis

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Merge some leagues is good and Old idea (like making an international league). but giving less money is way unfare for active teams

Kr10s

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@Champione: it's clear you don't have any idea of what it feels playing in lower divisions..... that's all i'll say about those profit changes you're proposing, any team in D division or lower would agree with me.

Ah, i forgot! You're following "national strength" and "realism", let me tell you something real:

Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Manchester City, Real Madrid are managed by foreign managers...... so, what's the deal if some foreign people manages a team outside their country?

If GKO developers would like to avoid it, they'd revome the "select nationality" option, or allow teams to join only in their country's IP, it doesn't happen.

Leagues with low activity doesn't have the same prizes active leagues have. What else do you want? Just check Canada, they don't even have a human national manager, they won't receive the same prizes other leages will.

You're just trying to increase a gap between countries..... if so, let's make things realistic! Let Argentina, Brazil, England, Spain and Italy promote better players than any other country!

You completly forgot this a MMO.......

EDIT: BTW, Check this: http://forum.gokickoff.com/index.php?topic=1124.0

This message was from season 2,.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 03:35:27 PM by CarlosT »
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@ CarlosT: I may be in the top level now, but this is my first season there, so I do know what it feels like to be stuck in a lower league for multiple seasons. That link you gave is interesting, but this one has gotten almost as many views and many more replies than it in only a few days. I think it went pretty unnoticed and unquestioned. Also, no standard threshold is given for the size of league or number of users that would result in lowered prizes, or how much these would be lowered, though I asked these questions there in hopes that admin will answer.

My main motivation here is less "realism" than it is to limit the ability of new players getting a relatively easy path to the big prize money.

Notice I wrote relatively easy. While it may not be "easy" to promote oneself from the 3rd or 4th level (such as for our nations) to the top in less than 5 seasons, it is impossible to do in some leagues. For sake of argument, let's say that it takes 3 seasons, on average, for an active (and shrewd) manager to move up 2 levels. In Argentina (4 levels), it would take 4-5 seasons to make it to the top after starting at the bottom. In Thailand (7 levels), this would take at least 9 seasons. Thus, after 4-5 seasons, the Argentine manager would be competing for 1 million G while the Thai manager would only be competing for 250,000 G. How is this fair?

IMHO, all new players:
1) should have to start at the lowest level of their league.
2) should be competing for the same prize in their first season. If they move up one level, then again they should be competing for the same prize as another player that has moved up one level in a different league, regardless of its size.

I totally agree that the prize money shouldn't be lowered for any leagues with at least 3 levels with active users. Instead of the prize table I posted in my first post, I'd really like to see one that looks more like this: (note these are prizes for winners of top level in league with X levels)

# levels           example           league top prize            cup prize     min guaranteed attendance
1                          COK                 350,000 G             525,000 G         7K
2                          ALG                  550,000 G             825,000 G        10K
3                          GER                 1,000,000 G           1,500,000 G     15K
4                          ARG                 1,550,000 G           2,325,000 G      22K
5                          ENG                 2,000,000 G           3,000,000 G     31K
6                            ?                   2,250,000 G            3,375,000 G     38K
7+                        THA                 2,450,000 G           3,650,000 G     43K

With this table, almost no one would be competing for less money than they are now. However, top teams in top levels of smaller leagues might complain that they can't play for still bigger prizes. That's why I suggested that geographically adjacent leagues should be merged, wherever possible, to ensure that most, if not all, leagues have at least 5 levels in them. In your case, Argentina could be merged with Chile, Paraguay and/or Uruguay to make 5 or 6 levels with active users in them. For me in the USA it would be harder - it would probably take all of North America, Central America, and the Caribbean just to make a league with at least 5 levels.  ::)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 09:57:57 PM by Champione »
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gabrielis

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In thai same teams are on top in top league for 3rd season, and you want make them to become even stronger. is football in thailand more popular than in england that they should get more att?those 3-4 teams would get more money after ending 1-4th plus they would get more money from att.

 this is way too far from equal rights. It was silly to make so many leagues, merge 10 countries but don't give penalty to active managers. Improve this game, giving an advantage to some countries will kill this game

Edit: some writing mistakes
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 09:07:55 PM by gabrielis »

Brian Clough

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So you don't mind that other players [actually] from England can register in N. Ireland (or similar nation) where there is just two levels? It doesn't bother you they'll be making way more money than you from the get-go. It doesn't bother you that they only have to advance one league to get the 20K min. attendance?

You see, if England, Scotland, Wales, N Ireland, Ireland, and maybe one more nation were merged, you'd have the 7 levels, and would be getting/competing for the same amt as Thailand. The idea would be to group countries together to the extent that all leagues would have at least 5 levels.

Right now the difference between top league prize money available in the first season (starting in level 2 or level 5) in the example I give earlier in this post is 800,000 (5-level is 20% of that in the 2-level league), and at least 10K (67%) in attendance (2nd level gets 15K guaranteed min attendance (GMA) while 5th level gets no GMA). Plus, there would be no difference in prize money OR attendance in the first season, no matter the league.  Furthermore, in my proposal the difference in top level prize money between 5- and 7-level leagues is only 450,000...only 18% less for a 5-level league, and GMA in the 5-level league would only be 25% lower than in the 7-level league. Considering the cost of adding seats, by the time top level clubs add enough to make a difference, the league will have grown into a 6- or 7-level league anyway!
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intervention

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Lol, you know what... i really dont mind about who gets what money  :)...

However, it would be nice (being in the bottom english division) if i knew i would get the same reward as a player in another countries bottom league  :P

Instead, i will have to play.. lets say 4....5....6....7 seasons before i earn the same as someone in a smaller country would in 1 or 2 seasons

This would give me a similar spending ability and team potential as a manager who is also in the bottom division of their country.

As i go up a league, and the other manager does as well... i would still expect the same rewards as that manager!

If i go up another league the next season but there are no further leagues for the mentioned manager in another coutries league to go up in then i would expect to get a greater reward as that managers rewards would remain the same  :D

Would this be fair on the other manager?... well not really... is it fair i have to work and wait 2,3,4 times as hard and long to become equal?... no not at all lol  :P


So combining leagues seems a great idea... making them all a similar size according to languages spoken would be better... but surely that would make things more fair on everyone???
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 10:16:44 PM by intervention »
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Kr10s

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IMHO, all new players:
1) should have to start at the lowest level of their league.
2) should be competing for the same prize in their first season. If they move up one level, then again they should be competing for the same prize as another player that has moved up one level in a different league, regardless of its size.

I agree with you in those things.

Just creating an extra level and placing all newbies there, you'd have a fair game for older users.
And, to avoid thai managers joining argentinian league (it's just an example) just lock their selectable leagues depending their IP, i'¡ve seen it in a lot online managers, so it's quite possible,

However, i dassagree in 2 things you propose:

1 -I DONT WANT TO PLAY A LEAGUE AGAINST CHILEANS, URUGUAYANS, PARAGUAYANS OR COLOMBIANS, I'M STRONGLY AGAINST IT: Argentina have enough people to play a league by itself, i'd love to face them in an international competition (even more, a regional competition would be great), but for league games, i love playing with argentinian managers, just enter argentinian chat at 20.00 (UTC) and you'll see a great group of managers sharing their experiences in league matches, chatting about their players and giving continuous info to NT manager, with a regional merge this won't happen:

* Even if we speak the same language, we use some words chileans doesn't, and so on with all latin american managers.
* NT discussions should end.
* Chat rooms would end in continuous fights, there's too many differences between us: wars, rivalries, regrets from long time ago.... of course, there's a lot of decent people, but everything would go to hell thanks to a rotten apple. Everything that happened during Copa America is a proof......
Combining Argentinian league with other leagues would ruin one of the greatest things GKO Argentina currently have: Our community sense..... i'm sorry but i don't want it.

2 - Even if i'm sure Argentina have enough people to don't be affected by those changes in league prizes, changing league prizes would only increase the gap between some regions, gabrielis is a clear example, he was here far before i came here, he's from Lithuania and he's a very active manager, suddenly, he can't get a full bonus, just because there's not much people from there? I'm sorry but there's no fairness at all. Just do something to avoid those managers joining leagues were they don't belong, don't cut other manager's chances.....
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Brian Clough

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Just creating an extra level and placing all newbies there, you'd have a fair game for older users.

I think a "Newbie Level" would only solve the problem for the first season, then it's the same once in the league. It may be discouraging for new users, too.

And, to avoid thai managers joining argentinian league (it's just an example) just lock their selectable leagues depending their IP, i'¡ve seen it in a lot online managers, so it's quite possible,

 :-\  but I think this simple feature is a good first step! At least you'd only get a head start if you were entitled it by IP address (no checking papers, please). While this does give smaller nations/leagues a bit of a boost, it makes the international competitions more competitive. But if we're going to have nations at all, please make them relevant by next season, admin.

1 -I DONT WANT TO PLAY A LEAGUE AGAINST CHILEANS, URUGUAYANS, PARAGUAYANS OR COLOMBIANS, I'M STRONGLY AGAINST IT:

I completely understand. It was an untenable notion, to be sure. :D  Let's just keep everyone honest.Otherwise, keep everyone equal.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 04:59:35 AM by Champione »
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Kr10s

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I think a "Newbie Level" would only solve the problem for the first season, then it's the same once in the league. It may be discouraging for new users, too.

It depends were you place that "newbie league"

Argentina currently have Top, B (1 to 3), C (1 to 9) and D (1 to 27) division (in other words, 640 teams in total) adding an E level would mean 81 leagues, in other words, you could add 1296 new teams.... more than enough for a couple of seasons.
However, i don't know if GKO servers are prepared for such a large improvement in global database, that's the reason i believe it hasn't been done yet.
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