Disparity between big and small GKO nations

[Drifter]

  I get really tired of people like TOPLEVEL opening their mouth about the situation in Bermuda. This user claims to be working for fairness, but admittedly starts accounts in other countries to train his own players. This may sound fair to some, but to me, this doesn't seem very fair. Of course, you will probably argue that its in the rules of the game and isn't cheating, but it makes me question how much you really care about fairness at all. You probably care about fairness as much as you care about being correct about what you say. I find it interesting that even though Bermuda has an active league, that users like TOPLEVEL, fight so hard to prevent us from reaching full league status. I question your motives TOP LEVEL. You have already admitted to practices that are unfair, even if Admin. sanctions it.

  Good luck with your second team. I hope that teams trains your players well for you. Have fun with the bots. I'm sure you picked a good league for that. Besides, if you wanted to do things fairly, you would have trained your own players at home like all the other non-premium members. Obviously, as I said before, being fair isn't what you are concerned about.

[Kr10s]

Drifter, it seems you started to reduce your squad's size, Just curious: how many more PR2 players do you have? You listed 13 players, can you expect to reach somebody else outside Bermuda with those? Was our fault that you picked to buy those low PR players in the first place? You clearly didn't lost the thread's track, because you attacked Top Level as soon as you found an oportunity. So should we wait some kind of own reflexion about all the mistakes you did or will you only chase "fairness" when it concerns you? There are many other threads that will surely find your opinión welcome. Your friend Brian suggested something that wouldn't be fair with smaller teams, i haven't seen you there, you also have discussions about cheating (BTW, i am still waiting for somebody apologizing for calling me cheater now, when is mind is supossed to be "cold"), you didn't posted there, why is that? Is that because you usually play WCC? Is that because nobody creates ghost account in Bermuda trying to get a different status? Is that because cheating doesn't concern you? Do not come with the "fairness" stuff here, when things are good for you, they aren't worth to post, when you need something more, you claim the world is unfair against you, but it's okay, we all know how you are....

And to be clear, i am against multi account and Top Level's decisión to farm his players with another account. That doesn't change the opinion i have about the advantage small country teams have, the team i have shown is the clear proof of it, your team might be as good as Little Fc, if your head would be focused beyond winning Bermuda Top level and if you would have done things better, sorry dude, that is NOT our fault.

[top level]

dude, it doesn't matter if it's not 'fair' by your standards.
it's within the rules and it's the only legal way to fight, on the long run, the cheaters that admin is protecting.

do i agree with a person having 2 or more teams? no, but these are the rules.
the worst part is that there are many persons having multiple accounts, without having premium on any of them and admin doesn't do anything about it!

and another thing: ''I get really tired of people like TOPLEVEL opening their mouth about the situation in Bermuda.''
YOU asked for my opinion by writing here. if you did not, you would not be writing here, you would be writing to admin. but you don't have the power to fight for your opinion, you only want people to agree with you.

and you don't have arguments to support your opinion, because there are not enough real users to fill up your top level, so there really is no need for an expansion. yet.

bring people to the game, if you are so desperate to expand the league and get more money. but no matter how much money you would get, you would still waste it. you lack managerial skills. learn from the things written here and try to do better!

[Brian Clough]

 

like i've said, wait till you'll be able to see the ranking and you'll see all the teams. there is an attempt for a triple account that is plain as daylight, a banned account, a ucrainean that's trying to get a team everywhere, some teams with random name and user like this: oucnpqyr and if you'll write down the ip's of all the teams in bermuda, you'll have serious questions about the real number of persons playing.
look beyond appearances.

First, there are at least 8 teams with unique IP addresses. There are a couple with duplicates but this is hardly irregular in gko. In my nation there are at least a dozen teams with shared IP addresses. They all claim to be siblings or friends, and as far as I know, they truly are. I really don't care so long as they aren't selling players to each other. Like I say we are in no position to judge.

and about your sarcastic remark: my goal is not round up all the bots, but to train 2 players from my first team. anything else that might come out of it, it's just a bonus. so far it helped me see how easy it is for users like drifter to develop a team. that's only if they want to.

I've long thought that experience gain from matches should depend on the opponent's team rating as well as competition type, rather than only the latter as it is now. You make an excellent case for this.

So you made another team to train players for your first team?  That's is what you are doing?

Just like Man Citeh and their MLS team, NYC FC. The oil sheiks must giggle with glee every time Frank Lampard scores a goal. In case you don't follow these leagues, NYC FC bought Lamps from Chelski and promptly loaned him to their parent club. That's modern football for you 

This also draws out an important point. In a league without promotion/relegation (like the MLS) there are few competitive incentives to get ahead of the competition with long term investments. It makes better fiscal sense to invest in the transfer market especially given today's prices.

[top level]

First, there are at least 8 teams with unique IP addresses. There are a couple with duplicates but this is hardly irregular in gko. In my nation there are at least a dozen teams with shared IP addresses. They all claim to be siblings or friends, and as far as I know, they truly are. I really don't care so long as they aren't selling players to each other. Like I say we are in no position to judge.

as i've said, there aren't 22 users, not even 16. drifter once claimed there are or were 16 users that had teams plus at least another one that was on the waiting list forever. that's not the case, obviously. drifter was lying in order to promote his agenda. this is the only reason i'm still writing. if he would have been right, i would have been on his side.

I've long thought that experience gain from matches should depend on the opponent's team rating as well as competition type, rather than only the latter as it is now. You make an excellent case for this.

that would be impossible and would only distance the top teams from the low leagues teams. why is it that lots of your ideas are for creating a bigger gap between those types of teams?
another thing: are there any serious online managers out there having this system in place?

and about loaning, second teams, extra youth for academy, extra cups and all the stuff implemented as premium: i'm against! but as long as others use them, i have to try my best to take advantage of them. i haven't created loaning to a second team, i've just started doing it and it's going to be a while until i'll upgrade that team enough to be able to really create strong players for my first team.
frankly, for a while i believed admin would step in and take a official stance against this trick. i wish i had known he wouldn't do it... i would have created my second team 2 years ago.

[Brian Clough]

First, there are at least 8 teams with unique IP addresses. There are a couple with duplicates but this is hardly irregular in gko. In my nation there are at least a dozen teams with shared IP addresses. They all claim to be siblings or friends, and as far as I know, they truly are. I really don't care so long as they aren't selling players to each other. Like I say we are in no position to judge.

as i've said, there aren't 22 users, not even 16. drifter once claimed there are or were 16 users that had teams plus at least another one that was on the waiting list forever. that's not the case, obviously. drifter was lying in order to promote his agenda. this is the only reason i'm still writing. if he would have been right, i would have been on his side.

No, it says there are at least 10 managers, maybe more. This does not count teams not yet placed in the league yet, either.

I've long thought that experience gain from matches should depend on the opponent's team rating as well as competition type, rather than only the latter as it is now. You make an excellent case for this.

that would be impossible and would only distance the top teams from the low leagues teams. why is it that lots of your ideas are for creating a bigger gap between those types of teams?
another thing: are there any serious online managers out there having this system in place?

no, it would only make it harder for farm teams like yours in inactive leagues. Nobody expects the players in a c-league to excel in the top level. Similarly, you don't see the world's best players on a team like QPR even though they have had a wage budget that could pay them. This wouldn't hurt players in lower leagues, only make them less experienced than their top level counterparts.

Until more managers have some opportunities to loan players, this will continue to be a problem. I have suggested that (non premium) managers should get to accept competition- dependent loans such as cup or WCL who would be returned to their home club when the team is knocked out of the relevant competition. Only these loans can't be made among managers sharing an ip address. This is just one example of a suggestion that would help smaller clubs. I also suggested managers be able to build standing terraces to boost attendance and club rating when it is low (<5000). All things considered, I think it is more important to make features more realistic than balanced as the game is ultimately balanced by the finite facility upgrades that can be made. No matter how early team a builds the best facilities, team b will eventually be able to catch up. Team a can't make further upgrades to maintain the gap of which you speak. In the end, the game is fundamentally balanced.


Edit: provided that league prizes also eventually equalise as well.

[Kr10s]

It might sound a bit offtopic, but still:

dude, it doesn't matter if it's not 'fair' by your standards.
it's within the rules and it's the only legal way to fight, on the long run, the cheaters that admin is protecting.

Unless you want to farm players from youth camp, i am not so sure of it. I mean,if you do a little sacrifice to farm your players until CA reaches 7, you can place your players in other manager's teams, just need to find another team willing to use your player. The fact that people request token/premium for letting their players on loan makes "free" CA7+ players more valuable, i sent 3 players outside my team, the 3 players are LA10, i sent them for free to trusty managers that accepted to use my players in all matches in exchange to leave them the players for free. I did tye effort to raise them until CA=7, they do the rest from now on.
Players from youth camp are a different story, nobody with some mental health uses CA1 players in an average league, you must farm them in a satellite team because using them in matches means giving too much advantage, but a CA5 player can easily be prepared in your own team and then be sent outside.

[top level]

yes, carlos, the youth camp players are my target, and this is why i'll upgrade the team. if i were to make it for ca7 and ca7+, i would not need better training grounds and i could easily send ca7-8 players away to get training from other teams in need of such players.

brian, you keep pushing ideas to make strong teams even stronger, like loaning players for cup. that's not fair and here is why: let's say i have a player to loan. what kind of team would i look for? a team strong enough to make it as far as possible into the competition. that makes that team even stronger, compared to any other team that is just average.

and for the experience dependent on ranking, you say it would only be harder for me. ok, show me where that is implemented in hattrick, since it's such a brilliant idea.

oh, another thing: since you keep pushing ideas such as the one about the facilities bringing money according to the number of the matches played at home, and since all ideas are performance related, i say: make the league title prize and the cup winning prize performance related. calculate the average of the ratings for each league and make interval prizes, like so:
max average rating is 650
min average rating is 490 (the 75% condition of the bots should be computed, too!)
max prize is 1 mil
min prize is 300k
leagues from 490 to 510 - 300k
leagues from 511 to 530 - 400k
leagues from 531 to 550 - 500k
leagues from 551 to 570 - 600k
leagues from 571 to 590 - 700k
leagues from 591 to 610 - 800k
leagues from 611 to 630 - 900k
leagues from 631 to 650 - 1 mil

similar computation should be involved in determining the cup money. how does that sound, fairness-wise? since my league is so much stronger than drifter's and i have wages so much higher than his, shouldn't i receive a bigger prize, according to the way you suggest ideas?

i'm against, since it will only widen the gap between our teams.


and about what drifter said: '' Managers never get placed into the league. So its kinda sad especially since we had a full league at one point but no second division was made and the guy had to wait till the start of the new season.''
where are those 16 users that had legit teams that made Bermuda's top level inadequate?
you've seen what kind of ''users'' are on Bermuda's waiting list.

[Andy]

Guys, can we call a truce and bring this thread to an end? Its not like the developers are listening and its sad to see such valued members of our community disrespecting each other

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but after all the contributions that Brian and Carlos have made to this game and to the community, they do not deserve to be accused of acting in self interest. Similarly, Drifter and Top Level are frequent contributors to this forum so their opinions deserve to be listened to, without being attacked.

To quote Whisky Sour from an earlier, similar thread "peace".

[Brian Clough]

yes, carlos, the youth camp players are my target, and this is why i'll upgrade the team. if i were to make it for ca7 and ca7+, i would not need better training grounds and i could easily send ca7-8 players away to get training from other teams in need of such players.

brian, you keep pushing ideas to make strong teams even stronger, like loaning players for cup. that's not fair and here is why: let's say i have a player to loan. what kind of team would i look for? a team strong enough to make it as far as possible into the competition. that makes that team even stronger, compared to any other team that is just average.

and for the experience dependent on ranking, you say it would only be harder for me. ok, show me where that is implemented in hattrick, since it's such a brilliant idea.

oh, another thing: since you keep pushing ideas such as the one about the facilities bringing money according to the number of the matches played at home, and since all ideas are performance related, i say: make the league title prize and the cup winning prize performance related. calculate the average of the ratings for each league and make interval prizes, like so:
max average rating is 650
min average rating is 490 (the 75% condition of the bots should be computed, too!)
max prize is 1 mil
min prize is 300k
leagues from 490 to 510 - 300k
leagues from 511 to 530 - 400k
leagues from 531 to 550 - 500k
leagues from 551 to 570 - 600k
leagues from 571 to 590 - 700k
leagues from 591 to 610 - 800k
leagues from 611 to 630 - 900k
leagues from 631 to 650 - 1 mil

similar computation should be involved in determining the cup money. how does that sound, fairness-wise? since my league is so much stronger than drifter's and i have wages so much higher than his, shouldn't i receive a bigger prize, according to the way you suggest ideas?

i'm against, since it will only widen the gap between our teams.


and about what drifter said: '' Managers never get placed into the league. So its kinda sad especially since we had a full league at one point but no second division was made and the guy had to wait till the start of the new season.''
where are those 16 users that had legit teams that made Bermuda's top level inadequate?
you've seen what kind of ''users'' are on Bermuda's waiting list.

First my idea is that teams in those competitions could accept 1 player on loan for their duration. Bermuda's cup, for example, has only 4 rounds, so it might be wiser to loan your player there. Even if the team loses in the first round he'll spend the better part of the season on loan. Your hypothetical situation may apply to Thailand, but even there, there are only so many "strong" teams, it won't take long before they have their players and other weaker teams would need to be considered.

What Carlos says is true, in theory, but not so much as n practice. I remember one manager last season who couldn't loan out a single player, all were CA 5-7 LA6-7.

Your idea to base prizes on league/cup competitiveness was suggested long ago based not on ranking but the number of levels in the nation. Maybe fairer but not palatable to many managers.

Finally if hattrick is the supposed standard bearer for this kind of game, where are loans in it? I believe there are none, does that make it a bad idea? Maybe gko can be its own game and should not try to imitate any others....

Thanks Andy but I think discussions like this are good so long as they don't devolve into mudslinging. Unfortunately it is all to easy to make unfounded accusations from behind a keyboard. I for one try to ignore them and the mockery in hopes that admin watches our discussions more than they let on....

[top level]

i don't understand your idea about loaning for cup. since Bermuda has only 4 rounds, it's the worst idea to give a player in that league. only 4 weeks. there are plenty of leagues with 10 rounds and then, there is Thailand with even more, so more matches. weren't these players supposed to play only in the cup?
but i don't think it matters, anyway. i don't see it happening.


the number of levels of the nation doesn't say much. there are plenty of over sized leagues.
for example, USA: Total users : 236, leagues down to C level
Turkey: Total users : 106, leagues down to D level
the average rating (not ranking) should be taken into account, unless the game master is going to resize all the leagues to a satisfactory level. even so, the rating reflects better the power of a league and the wage expenses. in case i'm not totally clear, i mean that team level showed in premium team report.

and you still haven't commented on it. since i'm in a waaaaay more competitive league, with much higher wages (even if i have less players), why would it be fair to get the same prize as drifter, that's fighting bots, deserted teams and other easy teams that rarely have ca7's and his cup runs for only 4 rounds?
when he makes it into the champion's cup groups, he has the advantage of an easier league, that brings him higher morale. also, not having a cup that runs for 8-10 rounds, he is able to use the same players every match, he doesn't need to keep many players in his team, he can sell a player and invest the money, instead of keeping it and paying the wage.

yes, loaning is a very bad idea! that's why hattrick doesn't have it.
you avoided my question: what serious online managers have implemented the experience based on ranking?

like i've said, i don't think it's possible. i get your point that it should be based on reality, but in reality you don't have at D level 2/3 of the spectators you have on the top level. or 'the best' stadiums at D level. and also, you don't have the same number of spectators in primera or serie a as in bermuda's top level. or the same sponsorship income. or the same sales from facilities. in real life, you can't make a super-star team in a 5th level league, here you can transfer any player, it won't mind.

so stop trying to judge everything based on reality, this is not real life and it should never try to imitate real life.

[Brian Clough]

If there is a standard bearer for this kind of game, it is Football Manager, not hattrick. And yes it is very realistic and played by millions.

If we wanted a truly "fair" game then let's get rid of promotion and relegation for a franchise system. 1000 credits and the best facilities will get you a permanent spot in your top level. Get rid of academies and institute a draft. He who finishes last gets the 7/12/5 player. Everyone gets the same amount of revenue from sponsors tickets and prizes. Only the best teams get to play in the cup. Etc. etc.

When you speak of balance and fairness, I think you mean parity. Fairness is good in politics and economics, but in sports it is downright boring IMHO. I, like drifter, only want fairness of opportunity, not fairness of outcome. That is all.

[top level]

i don't play it and don't intend to play it, but like i've said, loaning sucks, so if FM has loans, it probably sucks. good thing i don't play it.

what it that, american football? no, thanx.

drifter had better opportunities, by starting in top level, i just showed that upgrading is done so much faster. he also refuses to take advantage of the opportunities the academy is giving.
 he only wants to play one way, to buy players, train and sell for a profit. the problem is, he's bad at it. look at his players. his highest value players are bought in season 6 and had barely made it to ca7, after so many seasons!

[Kr10s]

drifter had better opportunities, by starting in top level, i just showed that upgrading is done so much faster. he also refuses to take advantage of the opportunities the academy is giving.
 he only wants to play one way, to buy players, train and sell for a profit. the problem is, he's bad at it. look at his players. his highest value players are bought in season 6 and had barely made it to ca7, after so many seasons!

Exactly...

And let me add another thing: we all told him he's got too many players... His squad have around 40 players, any team playing league, cup and WCC need 25 players at most, so we might say that he's got 15 extra players.
Let's say that an CA4 players receives 3.500G as weekly wage and a season takes around 20 weeks, how much extra money is Drifter paying on wages?

3.500x15x20=1.050.000G

And here he is, complaining for 700k extra each season, i can't imagine how his behavior would be if his squad would be filled with CA7 asking 10k each week.

Drifter had far more oportunities to develop a strong structure than most of us, if he would have picked a better way to invest his incomes his team and his finances should be a lot better, nobody depends on prize money to improve his academy, specially after academy system changed some seasons ago, academy is the biggest income source in short term, with less incomes than his, many users are beyond his squad, sadly, he didn't invested the potentially high incomes he received when he started so his incomes never had the proper acceleration, he might like it or not, but he did things wrong, what's the point having 3 keepers? Some seasons ago he loaned a CA4 keeper maxed, Will somebody tell me that these are good moves?

And it's a bit offtopic but still, i love FM! But if GKO would be similar than FM, the gap between big and small teams would be even  higher, min. Attenance rates wouldn't exist and bigger teams would be bringing 60k people to their matches, and a low competitive league like Drifter's shouldn't bring more than 15k, so let's keep some GKO rules as they are, don't we think?

Andy, i'll take your advice from now on, i'll leave this thread for good, this is pointless, nobody from the dev staff is  listening and Drifter doesn't seem to accept his mistakes so we are in an endless discussion....

[Drifter]

  Once again you have all missed the point, save a few people like Brian and Andy who actually listened to what I said and don't just make up words for me in their own posts. Well.. you have the rights to your opinions and I have the rights to mine. What you don't have the right to do is be as abusive as you have been in the forum.

My point was about Bermuda, not about my club personally. Basically, I fight for the rights of all Bermuda managers, the same managers that are being insulted by certain managers to get their points across. I can respect wisdom but certainly not those who try to bully people to get their point across.

My posts in this forum became a bit heated and many were quick to jump on me for that. I can easily see the unbalance in this forum. It's like they say, if you have haters, you must be doing something right. Perhaps its because they had a two years start on me... (No, couldn't be that. We will hear about how that must be wrong in the next few posts I am sure.) Either way, I will continue with my plan.  Hopefully, I will throw these words right into the faces of my critics with success. I am patient and like Brian said, its not like they have any more advancing to do.

Good luck with your efforts guys. Remember... once you are at the top, there is only one way to go. I'ld like to be the one to send you on your journeys.

Lots of love from Bermuda

[Kr10s]

No Drifter, you are not patient, a patient manager would use 2 or 3 seasons to develop a strong squad with low CA  high LA med PR players (last season, Sopelana went to B level raising young players, you know? ) you always put National success as a priority, a respectable decision but now you must face the consecuences,  nobody in Bermuda invested real money into youth player and a youth team proyects (some never upgraded their stadium to 20k, wich is worst), i can speak for my league because i have tracked their development since they started: most of them are far stronger than Barmuda teams, all of them had to deal with low attendance rates when they started, most of them never played WCC and most of them never were premium (so, with no custom cup incomes they got less than those 700k you complain each season) so Bermuda's problem is not those extra G from prize money, i am absolutely sure that this scenario is similar in many countries.

EDIT: Ah, i forgot! About the "you are on top now, there's only one way out" comment, i told you earlier, i will play WCC using subs from now on, so you will have a chance to make your dream true,  do you think i mind it?

[Brian Clough]

i don't play it and don't intend to play it, but like i've said, loaning sucks, so if FM has loans, it probably sucks. good thing i don't play it.

what it that, american football? no, thanx.

So you must think gko "sucks" since it has loans? Then why do you play it?

You'll find that the franchise system is used in variety of sports including association football (MLS, Australian A-league), and rugby in the southern hemisphere.

[Ruta]

i don't play it and don't intend to play it, but like i've said, loaning sucks, so if FM has loans, it probably sucks. good thing i don't play it.

what it that, american football? no, thanx.

So you must think gko "sucks" since it has loans? Then why do you play it?

You'll find that the franchise system is used in variety of sports including association football (MLS, Australian A-league), and rugby in the southern hemisphere.

but GKO loans system really sucks and is making more advantage for premium users. It should be a youth league when all our youth get training and exp. Now it is only for premium users.

More- a lot of loans is done for premium or tokens. So by real money. It is correct for you? I know that don't. GKO is going straight to pay for win game . Soon will be no matter how good manager you are but how much cash you spend

[Brian Clough]

i don't play it and don't intend to play it, but like i've said, loaning sucks, so if FM has loans, it probably sucks. good thing i don't play it.

what it that, american football? no, thanx.

So you must think gko "sucks" since it has loans? Then why do you play it?

You'll find that the franchise system is used in variety of sports including association football (MLS, Australian A-league), and rugby in the southern hemisphere.

but GKO loans system really sucks and is making more advantage for premium users. It should be a youth league when all our youth get training and exp. Now it is only for premium users.

More- a lot of loans is done for premium or tokens. So by real money. It is correct for you? I know that don't. GKO is going straight to pay for win game . Soon will be no matter how good manager you are but how much cash you spend

I fully agree that the gko loan system needs major reforms. So does premium. I say let everyone accept 1 player on loan, make loans for real money illegal, make some premium features available to all users. At least if people want to pay for a loan, find another way to pay, don't buy tokens, don't give the money to the game!

[Ruta]

Sorry. I wasn't clear enough. There is a lot of loans when one user buy premium or tokens to other for loaned player. And this is really sucks. I saw many times when just average team  is maked very strong by 2 loaned superstars! This another way to make this game unfair.

[LieCheatNsteal]

i agree normal users can get 1 loan, but set at rating 5000+ plz

[Brian Clough]

Sorry. I wasn't clear enough. There is a lot of loans when one user buy premium or tokens to other for loaned player. And this is really sucks. I saw many times when just average team  is maked very strong by 2 loaned superstars! This another way to make this game unfair.

Yes I understood perfectly - it is disgraceful that some managers do this and even worse that others pay for credits to get them. This kind of loan should not be allowed.

i agree normal users can get 1 loan, but set at rating 5000+ plz

good point 

[chuncho_]

between the loan premium, causes great injustices to this game because is full of farms to build a team

it's something as ridiculous as cheaters many teams do every day, without the administrator do anything

from three months ago I sent a very clear message about cheating and nothing even

http://www.gokickoff.com/team_transfer.php?club_id=292862
http://www.gokickoff.com/team_transfer.php?club_id=292866
http://www.gokickoff.com/team_transfer.php?club_id=196667


how we will move forward even if these things happen?

[GregoryUnubs]

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[GregoryUnubs]

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languagelaboratorylargeheartlasercalibrationlaserlenslaserpulselatereventlatrinesergeantlayaboutleadcoatingleadingfirmlearningcurveleavewordmachinesensiblemagneticequatormagnetotelluricfieldmailinghousemajorconcernmammasdarlingmanagerialstaffmanipulatinghandmanualchokemedinfobooksmp3lists
nameresolutionnaphtheneseriesnarrowmouthednationalcensusnaturalfunctornavelseedneatplasternecroticcariesnegativefibrationneighbouringrightsobjectmoduleobservationballoonobstructivepatentoceanminingoctupolephononofflinesystemoffsetholderolibanumresinoidonesticketpackedspherespagingterminalpalatinebonespalmberry
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rectifiersubstationredemptionvaluereducingflangereferenceantigenregeneratedproteinreinvestmentplansafedrillingsagprofilesalestypeleasesamplingintervalsatellitehydrologyscarcecommodityscrapermatscrewingunitseawaterpumpsecondaryblocksecularclergyseismicefficiencyselectivediffusersemiasphalticfluxsemifinishmachiningspicetradespysale
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