Match Engine 3.0 - discussion

[Ruta]

why? tell me more cause I think that now is more balanced and I explained above why

I think Ruta here wins the prize for the #1 supporter of the unannounced new engine

ha ha ha cause people always complaining before try to understand. GKO was not easy game from the beginning : bad game manual, bad feedback from staff, unexpected changes and so on ...

information about the engine is indeed needed.

Just played my friendly, and had 4 red arrows with zone marking, when with same team last season i would have had around 1-2 blue one's.
Sadly, because of lack of information, i don't know why it has dropped so badly

agree looks like in new engine is harder to get descent ZM then before. But I think it is not bad. for me it was too easy to have very good ZM because 4 defenders have 3 excellent skills: positioning, acceleration and tackling. Now all players contribute in ZM.

@ Rincewind
in my analsys it looks that ZM afected more in new angine then OZM. It looks like defs have better OZM then atackers ZM. As I said above . it is harder to get descent ZM now

So Marking should be dropped by the game. Everyone we will be by Default Marking!!!

You can be right, but for UPM or USM or USP it was always like that Now users should think twice befere set the way of defense. Before it was obvious. Perfect changes, don't you think? lol

PS. I think I can still choose ZM for many matches

[GillBate]

I think this game still have display bugs. My ZM is not that bad to show 4 red arrows.
I think it's still the same code as you see the total of grade in "next match report", the incorrect calculated.

[Kr10s]

I think this game still have display bugs. My ZM is not that bad to show 4 red arrows.
I think it's still the same code as you see the total of grade in "next match report", the incorrect calculated.

Maybe it needs to be rebalaned, who knows? I haven't played matches so far, but watching so many red arrows in the last hours tells me this is might not be right at all.
Well, another change added without some previous testing... somebody surprised? I just can't believe how i could be so naive expecting a real change a season ago... i regret to have spending money in an extra year as premium user. 

[Ruta]

I think this game still have display bugs. My ZM is not that bad to show 4 red arrows.
I think it's still the same code as you see the total of grade in "next match report", the incorrect calculated.

Maybe it needs to be rebalaned, who knows? I haven't played matches so far, but watching so many red arrows in the last hours tells me this is might not be right at all.
Well, another change added without some previous testing... somebody surprised? I just can't believe how i could be so naive expecting a real change a season ago... i regret to have spending money in an extra year as premium user. 

It is all about passing. There are lot of defs which have good passing which affected OZM very much. In other side I don't see any Fc or AMC with tackling or positioning.


add: matches looks like things not change as much as many people think.

[申花]

I think it is bug.I guess the new engine change UZM，not OZM. The level of UZM is decreased.But the level of OZM is still very high.Can GM check it?

[Sopelana]

I think this game still have display bugs. My ZM is not that bad to show 4 red arrows.
I think it's still the same code as you see the total of grade in "next match report", the incorrect calculated.

Maybe it needs to be rebalaned, who knows? I haven't played matches so far, but watching so many red arrows in the last hours tells me this is might not be right at all.
Well, another change added without some previous testing... somebody surprised? I just can't believe how i could be so naive expecting a real change a season ago... i regret to have spending money in an extra year as premium user. 

You know I had a A for ZM, in my friendly match I get 4 red arrows. Is true I didnt use my main team at all, is true too, moral is low (but this is for both). Something tell me things have changed.

[申花]

I think this game still have display bugs. My ZM is not that bad to show 4 red arrows.
I think it's still the same code as you see the total of grade in "next match report", the incorrect calculated.

Maybe it needs to be rebalaned, who knows? I haven't played matches so far, but watching so many red arrows in the last hours tells me this is might not be right at all.
Well, another change added without some previous testing... somebody surprised? I just can't believe how i could be so naive expecting a real change a season ago... i regret to have spending money in an extra year as premium user. 

It is all about passing. There are lot of defs which have good passing which affected OZM very much. In other side I don't see any Fc or AMC with tackling or positioning.


add: matches looks like things not change as much as many people think.

I don't think so.It is obvious.In team report,my uzm 482,ozm 409.It means if I play a match with myself.I can use UZM.
Today I play a friendly with a team.My team level:700,4 star.My opponent is about 570,2.5 star.His ozm could't be higher than mine!So why my
marking tactic appear red arrow point?It is must be a bug.GM should resolve it as soon as possible.
The match link:http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6781957

I guess GM change the system about UZM with every position, forget OZM to do the same thing.Am i right?

[Kr10s]

I don't think so.It is obvious.In team report,my uzm 482,ozm 409.It means if I play a match with myself.I can use UZM.
Today I play a friendly with a team.My team level:700,4 star.My opponent is about 570,2.5 star.His ozm could't be higher than mine!So why my
marking tactic appear red arrow point?It is must be a bug.GM should resolve it as soon as possible.
The match link:http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6781957

I guess GM change the system about UZM with every position, forget OZM to do the same thing.Am i right?

Well, i saw team tactics used in that match, and despite the red arrows stuff, ball posession seems distributed same than last season. You got 70% playing easy tackling, any team using such a wrong marking tactic can't get 70% posession. Something must be fixed or rebalaned, i can't understand that somebody getting 4 red arrows can get 70% posession. Your zonal marking seems pretty effective...

At first sight, i would say that AAoP and APoP levels must be rebalanced to show reasonable values.

[Red]

It is bug for sure with UZM ,I think they did not finished a work on it same as with tactic report of next team in premium option.Maybe they add one more skill to UZM but they did not implement that skil to counter team tactic.Could be that we have 4 skills against 3 in calculation? Anyway it looks like our team report can be complately wrong too. 

[Ruta]

It is bug for sure with UZM ,I think they did not finished a work on it same as with tactic report of next team in premium option.

looks like in opponent team report sums are counted in old way. When it is compared with new system for own team it makes all this mess. Thankfully it look like it don't affects results

[Red]

sums are counted in old way. When it is compared with new system for own team it makes all this mess. Thankfully it look like it don't affects results

If it is like that than probably they forgot to write some code line to arrows graphic and team report...
The rest should be in plus for realism in this game.Next time some penalty for playing ridiculist tactic will be great.Now we can set four players on one side and just two or even one on other side and our team could be even better - crazy and complately not like in real life.That create situation when managers dont have to care so much to build balanced team with replacement on every position.

[Red]

I play now friendly against team where manager dont change a tactic anyway (all settings default),and he use same squad as well in whole seasons.Last season play against him two  times with squad little worse than I have now and my team create ball control at 67-69% Right now in half of match Im down 49%-51%.My team is losing ball possesion against full default tactic with team about 20 points worse in team level.Unfortunatelly I think a bug is affect a game and im sure I get penalty with 4 red arrows for zone marking.

Current game http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6782117
Last season http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6088113
and last season game on my stadium http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6088233

Hope they will fixed fast because now it is non playing game 

UPDATE: Yep I have got 4 big red arrows for zone marking...

[Aquilicua]

I think there is a bug in zone marking tactic... and possibly some bugs more (premium table, etc)

[admin]

Hi,

I will check with the devs and designers.

[Kr10s]

Okay, i wanted to see how this new engine works with my own hands before giving an opinion, now i can say only one thing for sure: ADMIN, WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS BIG BAG OF SHIT?

This is my first match with the new GKO engine: www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6782051

I tried something basic against a weaker oponent: my classic formation, just replaced an AML with a ML because based on the few info that premium tools gives us, the "M" line seems to be key to. bost most team tactics, team level was over 650, the result speaks on its own:

If i want to get a decent marking, placing 6 players behind the AM line won't be enough, what should i do? Fill the "M" line with as many midfielders as possible? Well, we will be closer than hattrick, we must make premium features cheaper, remove ingame advantage to premium users, remove token, find a staff that show some interest on gamer's concerns and more than a 800.000 active users, there's a lot to do, but reducing the tactics to fill the field with midfielders is a good start indeed!
Individual skills doesn't seem to affect the engine that much, i could understand losing 1-0 against that team, but 3-0? Come on! With this squad (more or less) i won the WCC, i lost only 3 league matches in the last 3 seasons, i scored more than 100 league goals last season, and i received only a few, now things are different, and now a mid table B level beats me 3-0 without doing something special? Despite my oponent played an open game (attacking, no counter attack, short passing, defensive line normal) my CA8 strikers couldn't beat a CA4 keeper, in the oposite, CA3/4 strikers managed themselves to beat a CA9 and a CA7 defender, and a CA5 goalkeeper after that, not to menction that a CA2 DR created a scoring chance against a CA9 DR (what was a DR doing in his left side by the way? he didn't played more roaming at all), so at first sight, individual skill doesn't count much.
Roaming/pressing doesn't seem to be that effective either, i got 4 blue stars in both, and i couldn't stop his attaking moves or generate enough clear chances in attack.

So, after containing lots of insults in at least 2 different languages (there are many spanish words that i ignore how they are said in english), i would like to have some clarification about this ridiculous new engine, i don't want excuses such as "bad luck", i need to see hiw this shit work so i can start to understand what i did wrong and what things i should improve, that should be a good start, but in order to get that info, somevody from the GKO staff should be paying some attention here...

[Brian Clough]

maybe something is wrong with me , but I like this season changes At least AMC, AML and AMR now have some disadvantages . I past they had only pros- gave to attack and didn't participate in defense. So it went to situation when line up without MC, MR/Ml were superior , extreme example Thai U21 who plays 2 DMC and 2 AMC sometimes or even Argentina with their amazing Sandoval on AMC who was key man to win WC tree times. Now users need to balance their line-ups , IMHO

I agree with you, in theory anyway. Too often managers were training their attacking players without defensive skills and, conversely, defensive players without attacking ones. That's not how I train my players and it was imbalancing the game, making midfielders (what Carlos calls the "M line") and certain tactics all but obsolete.

However this new system has what I see to be a serious flaw beyond any bugs in it: It places weights on player tactical scores based solely on position. Here we have 3 basic categories (high, medium, low) of influence on tactics that do not take into account other factors, such as the team strategy, defensive line, or the number of players in each category. If the game is going to take this more advanced step, it needs to be done right!

Each of these factors should directly affect the weights applied to tactical calculations. Instead they are basically applied with an assumption of a normal strategy and a normal defensive line and a "normal" number of players in each position category. Here's why:

High (push up) defensive line should increase the weight on attacking tactics for fullbacks and center backs as they will be involved in attack more
Deep defensive line should decrease the weight on attacking tactics for fullbacks and center backs as they will be involved in attack less

Attacking strategies should decrease the weight on defensive tactics (and increase the weight on attacking tactics) for attacking midfielders and forwards while defensive strategies should do the opposite. The more extreme the strategy, greater the effect should be on the weight coefficient applied.

Finally, formations using unusually high numbers of defensive players (D, DM, amd M lines) should place a greater weight on defensive tactics for these players than formations with few of these players. Conversely, formations with several attacking players (F, AM, and M lines) should place a greater weight on attacking tactics on these players. The idea is that with more players in "appropriate" positions devoted to these tactics, it frees up other players in "inappropriate" positions from emplying them. For example, a formation using only one forward should free the lone forward to attack more than another formation with 2-3 forwards, who would be needed much more for defending. Conversely, a formation with few (2-3) defenders (D line) would force them to stay on the defense and their attacking tactical abilities would matter much less than a formation with 4-5 defenders. This is all rather difficult to explain, so I'll try to develop an analysis of this for better explanation.

[Kr10s]

I fully agree with you Brian.

If this new system doesn't consider other factors, we will have a game filled with teams playing all with the same formation (something tells me that DR, DC, DC, DL, MR, MC, MC, MC, ML, FC will be the perfect formation for this engine) just to get high tactical rates with it. Right now, my team can be far stronger placing a half developed CA4 MR than using a fully developed CA8 AMR, that doesn't make any sense at all.

If this is the direction we are taking, i am afraid that the intent to inprove the engine and make it more realistic will actually become into an involution, any formation different than filling the M line with players will be a waste, in other words, GKO engine will lose one of the greatest things it had to offer: unlimited tactical options.

I fully understand that the engine needs improvement, that training MR, MC and ML players had far more cons than pros, they were a burden in team tactics somehow, but this change goes in the opposite direction and that is completely wrong! They shouldn't sacrifice the DM and AM line to make MR, MC anf ML useful, there must be a way to make them both coexist, else, the best thing that GKO had to offer before will become in just another unfinished change that were launched without testing and claims for a fix inmediately.

[Red]

Admin,Dev. and designers should now:
1.Reload server to old engine.
2.start season 10 again.
3.repair and test new engine during season 10
4.Inform everybody two weeks before new season 11 about details in new engine (tested and final good one).

Keep this season for testing and improving few times new engine could be disaster.

[Ruta]

If this new system doesn't consider other factors, we will have a game filled with teams playing all with the same formation (something tells me that DR, DC, DC, DL, MR, MC, MC, MC, ML, FC will be the perfect formation for this engine) just to get high tactical rates with it. Right now, my team can be far stronger placing a half developed CA4 MR than using a fully developed CA8 AMR, that doesn't make any sense at all

For sure old system DMC with only defensive skills + AMC with only attacking skills doesn't work in new engine. But I don't think so that now 3 MC on the field will be more effective than old DMC +AMC. Last season I go crazy with my DMC who is all-round player that he is too weak cause DMC used to need only defensive skils. Now he play pretty good yesterday. In the same way one sided AMC, AML/R were superior in past engine. They used to need only speed and ball control. Now I think they should be more physical, tactical and mental.

As I can agree that there is a lot changes  I can't agree with

GKO engine will lose one of the greatest things it had to offer: unlimited tactical options.

. There is a lot new option but many users have improper players for that.

Changes was announced as rebalanced positions only but this is completely new environment!!! This is revolution not evolution.
And the most of us is unprepared for new engine. As we mention it many times information from Admin are too rare and short and unclear. Changes like this should be announced 2-3 seasons before launch cause training new player takes so much time.

Admin,Dev. and designers should now:
1.Reload server to old engine.
2.start season 10 again.
3.repair and test new engine during season 10
4.Inform everybody two weeks before new season 11 about details in new engine (tested and final good one).

Keep this season for testing and improving few times new engine could be disaster.

1,2,4  is right
about 3 I think engine is working as was planned. There is a bug with display statistics after the match for sure, but it doesn't affect geme result

[Kr10s]

Ruta, you know that flexibility is one of the things that i always tried to reach when i raised my players, that's why i have a balanced MC and another ML somehow ready for the new engine, i have been raising an MR since season 9, but 2 things doesn't like me at all:

Right now, my team can be far stronger placing a half developed CA4 MR than using a fully developed CA8 AMR, that doesn't make any sense at all

At first sight, it sems that my CA4 MR will be useful earlier than expected, and that is what makes me think that playing with 3MC will make things even worst.

And to add, my team's defense becomes stronger placing any striker in the defensive line, so new engine doesn't consider my player's ability to play zonal marking, just add his few ability to a total team level, that is ridiculous

I wanted to test something different today, but i'm out of eletricity since yesterday, i can't change player positions using a smartphone, i am trying to understand this "revolution" with the few info we got, but at first sight, i don't like it at all, we are not talking just about "teamwork affecting all team tactics" and "all players will affect all team tactics", we are talking about fully developed star players smashed by unknown average players, that doesn't make any sense at all!

There is a bug with display statistics after the match for sure, but it doesn't affect geme result

Then please, explain this to me: www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6782051

Beause i can't find any logical answer about it.

[Ruta]

I agree that it strange result, and I wrote it in match chat. But it is still only one game.
Game when you have been able to make 18 shots and had 61% possession. So only you shot accuracy was bad in this game.

PS. you can't expect from me to explain this cause I have so many question as you . I am not defending new engine . I just wanna to discuss about it. If things don't change as Luca wanted we need to get knowledge of of new engine asap.

PS.2 In old engine I saw many games when strikers have bad day and opposite GK was wonderful.

PS.3 don't be angry but your flexibility wasn't the factor in this game, and you are flexible in players in different positions.

 Now it looks like players need to be flexible in many positions. Yesterday http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6781925 I played old classic lin up with DMC,AML,AMR and AMC and still got one blue arrow in ZM!!! Maybe it was because Senniam is classic MC with pretty very good defending skills , good physical, mental and tactical skills and Eads is all-rounder. Alamgir has amazing physical skills too (teamwork also ). So as you see after one game is hard today something more and with descent confidence.

[Kr10s]

Yes Ruta, it's common that the dominating team makes opponent keeper perform better than usual and own keeper performing badly after just a few chances, i already know that and i am okay with it, things are like this IRL too.
But yesterday match was something too weird, itbcould be somehiw reasonable if oponent would play defensive and counter attack or something like that, but he played an open game, no defensive line back, no counter attack, attacking strategy, the perfect combination to show all his weakneses together. His bad defenders (CA4 both, 2 and 4 exp, ofs E) managed to stop my attackers (that doubles them in CA and exp levels), and his attackers (CA3, exp 2 and 3) managed to score 3 goals agains defenders that doubles/triples their CA and exp, my pressing and roaming were suposed to be "best" level and i couldn't stop his normal attacking tactic and couldn't beat his weak defense despite my team performed very good in roaming (attacking moves)? What conclusions should i take from it? Maybe i am too angry to understand and i need more info, but i got the feelling that "luck" factor became too big and no matter how your team performs tactically, it's all about players distribution and luck... if that's the case, my love for this game is over and i will need to start over, farming new players without taking tactics into consideration...

[Ruta]

We have game today and tomorrow. Let's see what happened. I will play today with Senniam on MC , rest of players are the same. More all of then are on 91-92 5 of condition. Today opponent is much tough too.

One more thing. I can agree that it looks like strikers have harder to score then in the past. Beside penalty and , freekick all my goals came fromm midfield and defense. But look here http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6781916 against only 3 defs Fc scored 2 and winger 2, too. Maybe new engine has more free space awareness ?

[MathewsPateras]

Hi,

I will check with the devs and designers.

What a surprise, when some people complains admin becomes very helpful.

Ok, Admin you are laughing in my face already with 5-6 season with the best academy and the best player I got is a shit La8 with Pr4 while everybody gets La10 or higher. In the last schools promotion I was the first investor in all countries and you only gave me another shit, La10 Pr4 in 135,000 only with 18y!!!!

Repair this error in the game too please and compensate me, not only when some people complains.

[Kr10s]

Mathews, with all respect, i think you are mixing things up. Your situation is not normal at all and i agree with you that things are too weird in your situation, but this is not about "some people complaining", this is something that involves all GKO managers, not a manager in particular, the least admin should do is to check if something is wrong as soon as possible.

And about compensation stuff, nobody asked you to invest millions in youth camps, most people agreed in forum that they are a waste of money (player age was one of the reasons behind of it), if you picked to invest your money there, that's your problem, we all knew you would get a close to 18 years old player, 1/x/4, so deal with it.