Author Topic: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position  (Read 2595 times)

Brian Clough

  • Moderator
  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1315
  • GKO Moderator
    • View Profile
    • Coolsport.tv - free live streaming football and other sports with great English chat...join us!
Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« on: January 13, 2014, 04:14:07 PM »
With new match engine, there is now a greater need than ever to include this position (AKA inside forward, withdrawn striker, second striker, or support striker) in our team formations.

many managers have commented that the AMC position or "Trequartista" has been significantly weakened by the new game engine. This is because many AMC were trained to be "playmakers" on attack with good shooting skills, but with limited defensive capabilities. The solution is a new position in the centre, lying between the forward line and the AM line. These players would affect tactics in the same way forward wingers (FL/R) do now, with 100% weights on press tactics and counter-tactics. They would also function much like true strikers with more chances in front of goal.

This position is highly influential in the RW game, and many of the greatest attacking players of all time are best described in this position. These include Baggio, Messi, Puskas, Pele, Cruyff, and Bergkamp. Luis Suarez, probably the most in-form player in the world atm, often plays in this position when his strike partner, Daniel Sturridge, is fit. Rooney, Aguero, Tevez, and David Villa are some other contemporary players who often found in this role.

Like AML and AMR players may be played in FL/FR positions without penalty, I would suggest that AMC or FC may be played in this "second striker" (SS) position without penalty. Of course, a good SS would need to be more of a playmaker (needing better passing and ball control skills) than a true FC (no. 9) while a SS should be more specialized in attacking and shooting than a conventional AMC (no. 10). This position would be something of a hybrid of these, or a "no. 9.5".

What do you think?  :)
Never sacrifice passion for glory!

Red

  • National Team
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
  • Red Devils 21 (278068)
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2014, 04:26:50 PM »
I think first we need rebalanced new engine and tools to decide self a role of a player in our tactic.For example we set full attack but we like to keep our dc players only back side,we set tactical arrows back and that should impact to numbers of actions of dc player in attack - reducing his percentage of attacking tactic but also avoid that dc could be for example on offside trap!.Same way if we set arrows to front for amc he should be fully second striker with all impact to tactical scores.Of course question is if dev. can be so open and do that for us.Still we dont have explanation how new ME works :-\
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 04:46:10 PM by Luca »
I will buy young players with PR 5 and higher,send me your offer.

Kr10s

  • Moderator
  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1664
  • Out of service :P
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2014, 06:53:31 PM »
GKO engine changed and player's performance also changed with it, defenders are tougher, that's a fact, and small speedy strikers took the worst part of it: they can't hit crosses properly and they can't display their real level now, IMO, adding a deep lying forward position would be perfect for them, not for AMCs.

AMCs players are rarely used in european football, but AMR/AML are key positions there: creating chances through the middle is really hard, so teams plays on wings mostly, only few strong teams plays FR/FL, most of then plays AMR and AML, mostly using deep lying forwards, but those strikers doesn't play for creative purposes, they are used to mid range shooting, extra striker in final touch or AMR/AML support, they are not playmakers.

That said, i understand that AMC performs worst, but i can't understand why AMR/AML were also weakened! Using FR/FL increases scoring rates and doesn't decrease scoring chances, AMR/L shouldn't be weakened and using AMR/AML players in the F line should grant a creativity penalty (0,8 OZM/OMM maybe? i think it would be reasonable.

But back to the main topic: sending AMCs into the F line shouldn't be the right solution, in my opinion we should be able to train them to play in a different position, so we could have the chance to give them a proper use, based on their individual skill:

If my AMC would be good at finishing/dribbling, i would send him to play as FC (or deep lying forward, even better), that would give me more scoring strengh if i need it.
If my AMC would be good a dribbling/passing, i would place them in a fully creative AMR/AML position, getting his full creative skill on my team's service.
If my AMC is good at passing/long range shoots, i would send him to play in M line (center or wings woukd probably depend on his dribbling skill), there he would have the chance to be the first creative pass and he would also have enough space to take long range shoots.

In south american football, AMCs still exist, even in NT level (Colombia is one of the strongest south american NT, and they play 4-3-1-2), and that's the way they adapt when they go to european football, so why not here?

I am sure that teaching new positions would be a lot easier to add than rewrite game engine to add am extra position, the million dollar question is... are developers going to listen us someday?
My team: (95928)

florinsteaua

  • National Team
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2014, 08:27:41 PM »
i think first we need to rebalance the AM line and then we can talk about new positions....it is not fair to kill a position ( AMC )...with the new engine you can pull AML/AML to FR/FL but what about AMC...all you can do is to play him on MC position decreasing your UZM level when in the other case playing AML/AMR on position FR/FL you have only to win, increasing you UPM level...soo CONGRATS for killing a position ( AMC ) and the work of some managers for seasons....this is the main reason because i decided not to buy anymore premium account   :(
MANAGER  OF  TIKI-TAKA BARCELONA, TOP LEVEL, ROMANIA

ROMANIA Forum Moderator

marius.82

  • National Team
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 07:54:21 AM »
maybe I am wrong,but in my opinion in the past the "AMC" had more power than he should, in the real football the ofensive midfielder(AMC) he is not very involved in the defensive so is natural that a team that uses only one midfielder,or one defensive midfielder  to be weaker in defensive than one that uses 2 midfielders (2MC or 2DMC)  . if you use AMC and 2 FC is normal to be a litle bit fragile in defensive. the AMC is not "dead" but his efficiency is (or should be) afected by his teammates. I think is normal to be risky to use a 4 3 1 2 setting. in real football the AMC is used the most in 4 2 3 1 or 4 4 1 1.
www.gokickoff.com/team_player_detail.php?player_id=5040664
www.gokickoff.com/team_player_detail.php?player_id=1910281
www.gokickoff.com/team_player_detail.php?player_id=6287726
www.gokickoff.com/team_player_detail.php?player_id=7090377
www.gokickoff.com/team_player_detail.php?player_id=5020117 those players doesn't look like they are dead,not at all !
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 08:20:03 AM by [email protected] »

Ruta

  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1327
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 08:41:25 AM »
maybe I am wrong,but in my opinion in the past the "AMC" had more power than he should, in the real football the ofensive midfielder(AMC) he is not very involved in the defensive so is natural that a team that uses only one midfielder,or one defensive midfielder  to be weaker in defensive than one that uses 2 midfielders (2MC or 2DMC)  . if you use AMC and 2 FC is normal to be a litle bit fragile in defensive. the AMC is not "dead" but his efficiency is (or should be) affected by his teammates. I think is normal to be risky to use a 4 3 1 2 setting. in real football the AMC is used the most in 4 2 3 1 or 4 4 1 1.
Thank you very much :) I thought that I am only black sheep :)  I think same as you. At old engine AMC was so much overpowered , now is just midfielder as others. It used to be that DMC +AMC line up gives only advantages ( M lines was some disadvantages in old engine ) . In new engine AMC is count as any other MC but plays higher on the pitch.

i think first we need to rebalance the AM line and then we can talk about new positions....it is not fair to kill a position ( AMC )...with the new engine you can pull AML/AML to FR/FL but what about AMC...all you can do is to play him on MC position decreasing your UZM level when in the other case playing AML/AMR on position FR/FL you have only to win, increasing you UPM level.
I am playing AMC and FL/FR a lot this season and I can tell that AMC is still very usefull, for sure AMC is not death. About FL/FR instead AML /AMR I can tell that there are disadvantages. FL is not midfielder, it is forward so he don't give possession in this meaning which give real MC or even AMC. There is still the rule:
Quote
Factors affecting ball possession.

1. Team formation affects ball possession - Attacking formations tend to let your team have more ball possession than defensive formations. Midfielder is the position that affects ball possession the most. However, having too many midfielders isn't a good idea.
.  I played many times with 4 forwards , but for sure it is not good idea for teams without strong midfield and defense.

In old engine  playing AMC was obvious  it was always the best for team, at new engine we need use AM line on purpose. When I have to have more possession I will play AM line for sure.
In new engine the best thing is that there is no the best and only right line up as was in old one ( as DMC +AMC - without MC was). Now we can choose if  we want more possession or more power in attack or build strong defense all we need to do is just move some players up or down . I saw many examples when 451 with AMC beat 433 with Fl,FC, FR just because of more possession.



Now team plays as we want not as engine think. In old we can put 5 defs and if one of them was weak defense was weaker then when we use 4 but stronger ( extremely even 3!!). Now if we put 5 the defense will be stronger for sure. Now the new rule is: more players more power in the area.

More I think that there is no Holy Grail about this engine like was in old one ( play without M-line). Now team performance depends more on chosen line up. In old engine my preparation to game was always the same, I used to try make my coefficients high as possible cause I knew that opponent couldn't change much. Now I need to predict how he will play cause he can easily rise his defense or attack or possession a lot. IMHO now we think more about other team then we used to.


Back to topic.
IMHO we don't need new position, we can make AMC as deep lying forward as well or Fc as well. AMC need more shooting skils : finish, LS;  FC more playmaking: pass, creativity
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 08:56:16 AM by Ruta »
My team Ruta Best (21685)
Winner of World Cup season 5 and season 29
Winner World Club Champions Cup
  season 18

Kr10s

  • Moderator
  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1664
  • Out of service :P
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 11:00:56 AM »
The big problem here is that we still have no real clues about many things about this engine:
In the way i look at it, using AMR/AML does NOT have any posession advantage, they only reduce pressing rates, but there's no penalty using FR/FL, posession is same IMHO.

@zapata, acerage ratings are same, because those teams are still winning, but most AM players dropped their goal/assist rate, that is a fact, average rates doesn't say anything worth.

@Ruta: game manual is filled with flaws, it never were reliable at all:

It says attacking formations grants ball posession: it actually meant attacking STRATEGY, with old engine, i heve seen teams dominating using only 4 players between AM and F players.
Game manual also used to claim that "having many midfielders wasn't a good idea", and the best formation was using 6 midfielders (DMR/DMC/DML/AMR/AMC/AML), funny huh? They actually meant that using many M players wasn't a good idea :)

Back to the main topic, performance issues aside, new engine's cummulative levels for defensive rates is PERFECT, but i don't see that using AMR/AML would give higher posession rates than FR/FL, i only see advantages in scoring rate and no penalties in posession rate.
My team: (95928)

Ruta

  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 1327
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 11:25:15 AM »
The big problem here is that we still have no real clues about many things about this engine:
In the way i look at it, using AMR/AML does NOT have any posession advantage, they only reduce pressing rates, but there's no penalty using FR/FL, posession is same IMHO.
I think possession is higher with AML/R then FL/FR

Quote
@Ruta: game manual is filled with flaws, it never were reliable at all:

It says attacking formations grants ball posession: it actually meant attacking STRATEGY, with old engine, i heve seen teams dominating using only 4 players between AM and F players.
Sadly I have to agree, Rules are not fully correct. You found it correct, it is about strategy not formation.
Quote
Game manual also used to claim that "having many midfielders wasn't a good idea", and the best formation was using 6 midfielders (DMR/DMC/DML/AMR/AMC/AML), funny huh? They actually meant that using many M players wasn't a good idea :)
 
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 12:12:08 PM by Ruta »
My team Ruta Best (21685)
Winner of World Cup season 5 and season 29
Winner World Club Champions Cup
  season 18

marius.82

  • National Team
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2014, 12:30:25 PM »
when a team has a very good player the others team will  try to do everything to block him,maybe this is what the new engine does. maybe the AM line drop the assist/goal rates because the others team try to stop them,but  they still help the team creating  spaces for the teammates,for example:(when a team uses 2 players to block 1,is natural  to be harder for that player but in the same time using 2 players to block 1 you give space for other players). I think a team can win using the same tactic 4 a while but at one point somebody will find a solution to stop that,maybe this is our case with the AM line. all the time in football you have to bring something new.teams should adapt to the engine not the engine to the teams.in the real football in the past teams used a man in front of the defensive line (in our country we name it "libero" ) that position does not exist today. P.S. I do not have premium account,so i have less informations than others.  those are only my opinions.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2014, 12:35:11 PM by [email protected] »


GregoryUnubs

  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 150645
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2023, 03:25:55 AM »
http://audiobookkeeper.ruhttp://cottagenet.ruhttp://eyesvision.ruhttp://eyesvisions.comhttp://factoringfee.ruhttp://filmzones.ruhttp://gadwall.ruhttp://gaffertape.ruhttp://gageboard.ruhttp://gagrule.ruhttp://gallduct.ruhttp://galvanometric.ruhttp://gangforeman.ruhttp://gangwayplatform.ruhttp://garbagechute.ruhttp://gardeningleave.ruhttp://gascautery.ruhttp://gashbucket.ruhttp://gasreturn.ruhttp://gatedsweep.ruhttp://gaugemodel.ruhttp://gaussianfilter.ruhttp://gearpitchdiameter.ru
http://geartreating.ruhttp://generalizedanalysis.ruhttp://generalprovisions.ruhttp://geophysicalprobe.ruhttp://geriatricnurse.ruhttp://getintoaflap.ruhttp://getthebounce.ruhttp://habeascorpus.ruhttp://habituate.ruhttp://hackedbolt.ruhttp://hackworker.ruhttp://hadronicannihilation.ruhttp://haemagglutinin.ruhttp://hailsquall.ruhttp://hairysphere.ruhttp://halforderfringe.ruhttp://halfsiblings.ruhttp://hallofresidence.ruhttp://haltstate.ruhttp://handcoding.ruhttp://handportedhead.ruhttp://handradar.ruhttp://handsfreetelephone.ru
http://hangonpart.ruhttp://haphazardwinding.ruhttp://hardalloyteeth.ruhttp://hardasiron.ruhttp://hardenedconcrete.ruhttp://harmonicinteraction.ruhttp://hartlaubgoose.ruhttp://hatchholddown.ruhttp://haveafinetime.ruhttp://hazardousatmosphere.ruhttp://headregulator.ruhttp://heartofgold.ruhttp://heatageingresistance.ruhttp://heatinggas.ruhttp://heavydutymetalcutting.ruhttp://jacketedwall.ruhttp://japanesecedar.ruhttp://jibtypecrane.ruhttp://jobabandonment.ruhttp://jobstress.ruhttp://jogformation.ruhttp://jointcapsule.ruhttp://jointsealingmaterial.ru
http://journallubricator.ruhttp://juicecatcher.ruhttp://junctionofchannels.ruhttp://justiciablehomicide.ruhttp://juxtapositiontwin.ruhttp://kaposidisease.ruhttp://keepagoodoffing.ruhttp://keepsmthinhand.ruhttp://kentishglory.ruhttp://kerbweight.ruhttp://kerrrotation.ruhttp://keymanassurance.ruhttp://keyserum.ruhttp://kickplate.ruhttp://killthefattedcalf.ruhttp://kilowattsecond.ruhttp://kingweakfish.ruhttp://kinozones.ruhttp://kleinbottle.ruhttp://kneejoint.ruhttp://knifesethouse.ruhttp://knockonatom.ruhttp://knowledgestate.ru
http://kondoferromagnet.ruhttp://labeledgraph.ruhttp://laborracket.ruhttp://labourearnings.ruhttp://labourleasing.ruhttp://laburnumtree.ruhttp://lacingcourse.ruhttp://lacrimalpoint.ruhttp://lactogenicfactor.ruhttp://lacunarycoefficient.ruhttp://ladletreatediron.ruhttp://laggingload.ruhttp://laissezaller.ruhttp://lambdatransition.ruhttp://laminatedmaterial.ruhttp://lammasshoot.ruhttp://lamphouse.ruhttp://lancecorporal.ruhttp://lancingdie.ruhttp://landingdoor.ruhttp://landmarksensor.ruhttp://landreform.ruhttp://landuseratio.ru
http://languagelaboratory.ruhttp://largeheart.ruhttp://lasercalibration.ruhttp://laserlens.ruhttp://laserpulse.ruhttp://laterevent.ruhttp://latrinesergeant.ruhttp://layabout.ruhttp://leadcoating.ruhttp://leadingfirm.ruhttp://learningcurve.ruhttp://leaveword.ruhttp://machinesensible.ruhttp://magneticequator.ruhttp://magnetotelluricfield.ruhttp://mailinghouse.ruhttp://majorconcern.ruhttp://mammasdarling.ruhttp://managerialstaff.ruhttp://manipulatinghand.ruhttp://manualchoke.ruhttp://medinfobooks.ruhttp://mp3lists.ru
http://nameresolution.ruhttp://naphtheneseries.ruhttp://narrowmouthed.ruhttp://nationalcensus.ruhttp://naturalfunctor.ruhttp://navelseed.ruhttp://neatplaster.ruhttp://necroticcaries.ruhttp://negativefibration.ruhttp://neighbouringrights.ruhttp://objectmodule.ruhttp://observationballoon.ruhttp://obstructivepatent.ruhttp://oceanmining.ruhttp://octupolephonon.ruhttp://offlinesystem.ruhttp://offsetholder.ruhttp://olibanumresinoid.ruhttp://onesticket.ruhttp://packedspheres.ruhttp://pagingterminal.ruhttp://palatinebones.ruhttp://palmberry.ru
http://papercoating.ruhttp://paraconvexgroup.ruhttp://parasolmonoplane.ruhttp://parkingbrake.ruhttp://partfamily.ruhttp://partialmajorant.ruhttp://quadrupleworm.ruhttp://qualitybooster.ruhttp://quasimoney.ruhttp://quenchedspark.ruhttp://quodrecuperet.ruhttp://rabbetledge.ruhttp://radialchaser.ruhttp://radiationestimator.ruhttp://railwaybridge.ruhttp://randomcoloration.ruhttp://rapidgrowth.ruhttp://rattlesnakemaster.ruhttp://reachthroughregion.ruhttp://readingmagnifier.ruhttp://rearchain.ruhttp://recessioncone.ruhttp://recordedassignment.ru
http://rectifiersubstation.ruhttp://redemptionvalue.ruhttp://reducingflange.ruhttp://referenceantigen.ruhttp://regeneratedprotein.ruhttp://reinvestmentplan.ruhttp://safedrilling.ruhttp://sagprofile.ruhttp://salestypelease.ruhttp://samplinginterval.ruhttp://satellitehydrology.ruhttp://scarcecommodity.ruhttp://scrapermat.ruhttp://screwingunit.ruhttp://seawaterpump.ruhttp://secondaryblock.ruhttp://secularclergy.ruhttp://seismicefficiency.ruhttp://selectivediffuser.ruhttp://semiasphalticflux.ruhttp://semifinishmachining.ruhttp://spicetrade.ruhttp://spysale.ru
http://stungun.ruhttp://tacticaldiameter.ruhttp://tailstockcenter.ruhttp://tamecurve.ruhttp://tapecorrection.ruhttp://tappingchuck.ruhttp://taskreasoning.ruhttp://technicalgrade.ruhttp://telangiectaticlipoma.ruhttp://telescopicdamper.ruhttp://temperateclimate.ruhttp://temperedmeasure.ruhttp://tenementbuilding.rutuchkashttp://ultramaficrock.ruhttp://ultraviolettesting.ru


GregoryUnubs

  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 150645
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2023, 08:17:47 AM »
audiobookkeeper.rucottagenet.rueyesvision.rueyesvisions.comfactoringfee.rufilmzones.rugadwall.rugaffertape.rugageboard.rugagrule.rugallduct.rugalvanometric.rugangforeman.rugangwayplatform.rugarbagechute.rugardeningleave.rugascautery.rugashbucket.rugasreturn.rugatedsweep.rugaugemodel.rugaussianfilter.rugearpitchdiameter.ru
geartreating.rugeneralizedanalysis.rugeneralprovisions.rugeophysicalprobe.rugeriatricnurse.rugetintoaflap.rugetthebounce.ruhabeascorpus.ruhabituate.ruhackedbolt.ruhackworker.ruhadronicannihilation.ruhaemagglutinin.ruhailsquall.ruhairysphere.ruhalforderfringe.ruhalfsiblings.ruhallofresidence.ruhaltstate.ruhandcoding.ruhandportedhead.ruhandradar.ruhandsfreetelephone.ru
hangonpart.ruhaphazardwinding.ruhardalloyteeth.ruhardasiron.ruhardenedconcrete.ruharmonicinteraction.ruhartlaubgoose.ruhatchholddown.ruhaveafinetime.ruhazardousatmosphere.ruheadregulator.ruheartofgold.ruheatageingresistance.ruheatinggas.ruheavydutymetalcutting.rujacketedwall.rujapanesecedar.rujibtypecrane.rujobabandonment.rujobstress.rujogformation.rujointcapsule.rujointsealingmaterial.ru
journallubricator.rujuicecatcher.rujunctionofchannels.rujusticiablehomicide.rujuxtapositiontwin.rukaposidisease.rukeepagoodoffing.rukeepsmthinhand.rukentishglory.rukerbweight.rukerrrotation.rukeymanassurance.rukeyserum.rukickplate.rukillthefattedcalf.rukilowattsecond.rukingweakfish.rukinozones.rukleinbottle.rukneejoint.ruknifesethouse.ruknockonatom.ruknowledgestate.ru
kondoferromagnet.rulabeledgraph.rulaborracket.rulabourearnings.rulabourleasing.rulaburnumtree.rulacingcourse.rulacrimalpoint.rulactogenicfactor.rulacunarycoefficient.ruladletreatediron.rulaggingload.rulaissezaller.rulambdatransition.rulaminatedmaterial.rulammasshoot.rulamphouse.rulancecorporal.rulancingdie.rulandingdoor.rulandmarksensor.rulandreform.rulanduseratio.ru
languagelaboratory.rulargeheart.rulasercalibration.rulaserlens.rulaserpulse.rulaterevent.rulatrinesergeant.rulayabout.ruleadcoating.ruleadingfirm.rulearningcurve.ruleaveword.rumachinesensible.rumagneticequator.rumagnetotelluricfield.rumailinghouse.rumajorconcern.rumammasdarling.rumanagerialstaff.rumanipulatinghand.rumanualchoke.rumedinfobooks.rump3lists.ru
nameresolution.runaphtheneseries.runarrowmouthed.runationalcensus.runaturalfunctor.runavelseed.runeatplaster.runecroticcaries.runegativefibration.runeighbouringrights.ruobjectmodule.ruobservationballoon.ruobstructivepatent.ruoceanmining.ruoctupolephonon.ruofflinesystem.ruoffsetholder.ruolibanumresinoid.ruonesticket.rupackedspheres.rupagingterminal.rupalatinebones.rupalmberry.ru
papercoating.ruparaconvexgroup.ruparasolmonoplane.ruparkingbrake.rupartfamily.rupartialmajorant.ruquadrupleworm.ruqualitybooster.ruquasimoney.ruquenchedspark.ruquodrecuperet.rurabbetledge.ruradialchaser.ruradiationestimator.rurailwaybridge.rurandomcoloration.rurapidgrowth.rurattlesnakemaster.rureachthroughregion.rureadingmagnifier.rurearchain.rurecessioncone.rurecordedassignment.ru
rectifiersubstation.ruredemptionvalue.rureducingflange.rureferenceantigen.ruregeneratedprotein.rureinvestmentplan.rusafedrilling.rusagprofile.rusalestypelease.rusamplinginterval.rusatellitehydrology.ruscarcecommodity.ruscrapermat.ruscrewingunit.ruseawaterpump.rusecondaryblock.rusecularclergy.ruseismicefficiency.ruselectivediffuser.rusemiasphalticflux.rusemifinishmachining.ruspicetrade.ruspysale.ru
stungun.rutacticaldiameter.rutailstockcenter.rutamecurve.rutapecorrection.rutappingchuck.rutaskreasoning.rutechnicalgrade.rutelangiectaticlipoma.rutelescopicdamper.rutemperateclimate.rutemperedmeasure.rutenementbuilding.rutuchkasultramaficrock.ruultraviolettesting.ru



GregoryUnubs

  • Legendary Team
  • *****
  • Posts: 150645
    • View Profile
Re: Needed: Deep-lying Forward position
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2024, 04:22:24 PM »