justice for all (deleted posts by spolentino)

[mihut]

since spolentino keeps deleting my posts (i've checked, no mods are active, only him, exactly when my posts are being deleted), i've decided to recover all my deleted posts and write them again. it's my right to debate on a subject, to argue my point of view, without being censored by a user that has no moderator capacity and no morals.

[mihut]

Mihut, i think we are going nowhere. The game DOES NOT renew own players contract automatically, it never did and when i said that i expected the game runing properly i paid my mistake (higher wages a whole season) but there is one difference: controlling our players contract is our job, not gamemaster's, not to menctionbthat people knew something was wrong with the UNH stuff. If you can not see the difference i think there is no point in this discussion.

In the other hand, "the cheater", remains the game fornthe same reason that people got their players back: admin need his money, are you suffering? I am reallt sorry, but in the other hand, some "good" people have players valued milions and they haven't lost anything at all. I am not expecting them to be banned of their players released, but i do think that things as they are now, are as unfair as that cheater free to do anything he wants, because for me (or any other team who did things right) any of these players would probably cost the the profit of a whole season.

Am i happy for havimg those managers still in the game? Of course i am, i want a fierce competition, but i want a fair competition and this is clearly not.

yes, agree! the game doesn't renew automatically, but the game shows if a contract is about to expire. it always has and last season was not a change in rules, it was an error.

and about people knowing about the unh: i don't think all users losing the players knew, only the ones postponing renewal. unfortunately, there is no way of determining who those users are, so...

[mihut]

Hi everyone,

Well this issue has certainly sparked a reaction - its almost like the old days! In my opinion the most important thing, which seems to have been missed is this :

Mihut wrote to Admin to explain an "armegedon" had hit the GKO world and he not only got a reply, he got swift action! Mihut was also upfront about why he proposed the action - not to help himself but because he feared lots of competitive managers would leave the game.

As result all those that have benefited from the action should be flooding these pages with their profound thanks to Mihut. The rest of us have not benefited but we can at least be appreciative of Mihut's motives and express our awe at his ability to coax Admin into action.

Well done mate

If the managers that you have helped do indeed stay in the game, then I have no doubt that you have made a huge contribution to this game.

Like real life, there is a lot that takes place outside of our control and should therefore be considered luck. Like real life, all you can do is manage the things in your control: a lot of us managed our contracts and we did not log-in on sunday morning to find our work of the last 3/4 years on the free player transfer list and as a result we did not suffer the understandable angst of the others. Those others got really lucky, and they know exactly who to thank!

i'm absolutely sure there were many e-mails in admin's inbox, about this issue, as soon as it happened. i'm happy you appreciate my action, but it's most likely that i'm just the most vocal user from all those that did something.

as i know admin, he doesn't lift a finger, if it's just one e-mail. this time, it was probably a massive amount.

and i'm very happy he took action. as soon as the game was back on, with all the players back and everything that happened in season 16 still valid, i wrote him again to congratulate. i don't often have the chance to congratulate him, but this time, he really deserved it!

[mihut]

Maybe, if you were writing with the same passion in season 15, that UNH does not work, we would not be writing all this. Everything else is attempted deception.

Maybe, if you were writing with the same passion in season 15, that UNH does not work, we would not be writing all this. Everything else is attempted deception.

there was a topic opened, warning about the 1 year contracts and it was still visible, it was one of the 5 topics shown in the window on the main page. however, it had little impact. i suspect the forum windows of many users are minimized and not just that, but many users don't know english...

i believe the only thing we should have done, was write to admin, a lot, at the beginning of season 15 and demand him to run the update. unfortunately, we were unable to guesstimate the impact of not running the update and failed to pressure him into taking action

[mihut]

not consistent with your demands. you need to make a choice: penalty for mistake or award for mistake.

Reintegrate the fired player has been an award for bad decisions.

Now the ones that weren't unattentive could receive an award from admin. 2mlns is just an idea.

that is the part i don't agree with (and because if this, i cannot support the award idea, even if i should receive the 2 mils, for paying attention).

there was no bad decision. there was a lack of taking the decision of renewing, that was triggered by admin's failure to update the unh status, last season.

the users are not to be blamed. it's like a traffic light: it failed to show red so everybody went on, as if there is no need to take any action, like, for example, push the brake pedal. the problem was that the traffic light was supposed to be red and let everybody know they are supposed to stop (and renew)

his shows that you want only the benefits and who has spent more money to enforce the rules MUST BE PENALISED, then do not follow the rules?

i don't want any benefits.

it's funny how i'm the one being accused, when i'm rejecting the idea that i should benefit from the 2 mil award.

i have followed the rules, i have renewed the contracts of my players and had absolutely no players lost!

still, i don't think it's fair to receive any award, when this issue was created by admin's failure to update the unh status, last season.

the users that lost players, without knowing the contracts were over, are not to blame and they made no bad decisions. they only had no idea what is going on, because the system had taught them to wait until they are being told to renew.

i don't understand why i need to explain so many times. not everybody is like you, not everybody logs in every day and knows everything about this game. and if everything was running normal, they would have been told what to do and this situation would not have existed.

i would totally agree to impose a penalty, even let them lose the players, in case the system never showed the [UNH] warning and the users always renewed the contracts, without any warning, of any kind.

[mihut]

i would totally agree to impose a penalty, even let them lose the players, in case the system never showed the [UNH] warning and the users always renewed the contracts, without any warning, of any kind.

Why would that be for? Is there a rule that says that contracts must be renewed only when asked?
As far as i Know, there is no rule saying when we should renew our contracts, and also we have the freedom to decide if we want to renew our contracts when they are 1 OR 2 SEASONS REMAINING (learn this game mechanics first), even if our players aren't unhappy.
In the other hand, there is a rule that says that when a player's contract is over, you lose your player.
Should people be penalized because they weren't "smart enough to wait our active admin to randomly decide to turn players UNH"? ORLY? Do you also want "a penalty"?
Are the extra fees paid not enough "penalty"?

This is hilarious....

forget about the rules! the game manual is not updated.

you tell me to learn the game mechanics? where have i said anything about not deciding for ourselves if we want or not to renew? you are totally over the line, here.

you are the one in need to learn the game mechanics! the game always showed the unh status. even if it's not a written rule, it's still a rule. if someone would have updated the rules and included all the things that happen in this game, the unh update would have been one of them.

again, for the millionth time: the game created a habit, taught the users to wait for that update, constantly told them: if you don't see anything red, you don't need to do anything, the players are safe. end of story!

like i've said many times, i don't support the ideas of penalties or rewords, in this case, but if you want a punishment to exist, based on the fact that those users had not made the best managerial decision, then i want a punishment for you, because you also have failed to take the best managerial decision and updated the contracts at the beginning of the season. and no, the extra fees are not enough penalty.

this attitude of mine is in response to your attitude of blaming the users and supporting the idea of a penalty, refusing to understand that if admin would not have forgotten about the unh update, the users would not have had any problems. this is only admin's fault. nobody else is to blame, since the game mechanics failed to provide a warning that has always been there and most likely will always be, apart from season 15.

[mihut]

So, should i learn about game mechanics from you? Sorry but the way your players were trained tells me i shouldn't, nevermind, that is not the discussion point here... let me show you my point in the wages stuff and then tell me how wrong i were and how right you were:

What makes you think that i only renewed contracts because they were 1 season left? Did i say that? I said that i updated my contracts, and that is a completely different story!
When a player reaches CA7, he usually ask around 10k, but when he reaches CA10, he usually ask around 25k.
Now, what happens when a player reaches CA10 and his wage is around 15k? Sometimes they don't ask for a higer wage!
In other words, i pay some extra a week for 1 season and i save more in a 4 seasons.
That said, what is the best math for you in a 7 season circle?
*Pay 5k during 2 seasons and 9k in 2 season and 23k during the next 5?

OR

* Pay 5k during 2 season, 9k during another season and 13k during 4 seasons?

And just in case, i have an example for you:

Peregrine Kay, CA10 Level 74 at Okay morale. I have been paying him 12k/week during 3 seasons, if i would renew his contract, this should be his demands: http://imgur.com/eAvkwrf

And i am really sorry that i can't show you how much would ask me players like Gerhard Slusser, Mariano Ravelli or Fernando Nieva, they started their "4 season without higher wages" period a season ago.... But if their situation now is similar than Robles or Quintana , their wages should be around 25 and 35k...


Grab a calculator and do the maths yourself, see the difference considering 3 or 4 players in a similar situation and you will see how brilliant you actually were 

THAT is what 15 seasons playing GKO taught me, to understand how things works, that sometimes i need to spend more to save a lot more later,  not the "you were used to...." thing you said.

My team improved a lot since last season, and i don't have any player requesting new wage, how about you?

...............


this part of my post i removed, since carlos removed his part of the message, to which i was replying. continuing:


and you keep forgetting another thing, that i've been talking about: not everybody that plays this game pays attention to all the details and makes all the calculations. in fact, only a small fraction of the users do. how would you like it, if the leagues were made up only of those users? you wouldn't, and here is why: the game would not be economically viable and would shut down.

now, in order to keep the game running, the phrase that you make fun of: ''you were used to...'' becomes much more important than you can understand. the game is largely made up of users ''used to wait for the game to tell them what to do''. the income generated by them playing allows you to keep playing so you should stop being so ungrateful and stop asking for them to be punished for a mistake that was not made by them.

more so, if your team is running perfect, why do you support penalizing others? they obviously don't run their teams perfect, so let them be.

[mihut]

Mihut, you are master of not wanting any benefit. But I ask you not to be penalized by the fact that they have spent more money than others who have saved on salaries and with that money they did other things that I could not do. This seems JUSTICE

spolentino, if you want justice, don't come here asking for more injustice!

your proposal, with 250k per player or 2 mil fee is total injustice! you cannot claim that 250k per player is fair, because that would mean that every player was supposed to have a salary increase of about 14k. only young players, that were receiving good training, get this increase in salary. how about all the players already maxed out, that usually request almost the same salary, maybe a few tenths or hundreds of G more? why would anyone pay 250k, for a player that maybe would ask, for example, for 50 G increase? this means the user saved 900 G per season, but you want to deduct 250k. total injustice.

the only fair way to make things right would be to take every player that was saved (reinstated), calculate the salary he was supposed to have, exactly 1 season ago, multiply that by 18 weeks and deduct the money from the owner.

i don't think it's possible, so everything better stay exactly as it is, right now. doing anything else would only make things worse, not better.

[mihut]

Mihut no replies merits, you're stupid, then blot your posts. not to recognize that in this way is penalized those who did the contracts as regulation it is obtuse

and the best way possible of carrying this argument is for you to call me stupid and for some moderator to censor me. i have not called you stupid, why are my posts being deleted?

later edit: as i have just found out, it wasn't a moderator deleting my posts, it was spolentino

[mihut]

let me come back with a part of my last post, that was deleted by someone who cannot respect a different point of view, a point of view well argumented:

here is the only way of making justice: take all the players saved, calculate the salary they were supposed to have, a season ago, based on the skills they used to have, a season ago, multiply by 18 weeks and deduct from the team. also, that salary was supposed to be today's salary.

the 250k penalty for each saved player is nonsense, since many, many players, don't have a salary increase that would justify 250k. some players only ask for 100G increase, making the entire season difference of 1800G. why deduct 250k, for 1,8k difference? not fair. it would only create more injustice

[mihut]

Mihut, i don't know who deleted your messages, but just in case you suggest it was me, all i can say is that i were not, i don't need to do it, i mean my position has beennclear enough and i think that despite what you tought initially, i think my move was right actually, but don't you worry, i have no intenction to ask a penalty for you because you will pay more money than me in upcoming seasons 

Now, back to the main topic: some players might not be worth 250k penalty, but other players should worth a lot more.
For ANY team, their players are their main capital. If you lose 2 players worth more than a million in est. value or really high LA players, we all know that their value IN THE MARKET is worth millions: was a 10/12/4 player worth 250k for you? If that player owner wants to sell his player, he can get 12M really easily, some people never saw 12M in their accounts in 7 or 8 seasons playing, so would you consider a 250k penalty something "fair"?
I agree that asking 250k for having a CA5 player back is ridiculous, but having a LA12 player back for even 5M as a penalty is a great deal, of course it might be better than having the player back for free, but if that's the case, any of us would be happy if the GM gives any manager a LA12 player for 5M.
And to be clear, i am not asking a high LA player or some money back as compensation, i only want that those managers who got back MILLIONS in players, have to deal with something in exchange of those players that shouldn't be theirs anymore.

right. they might get back millions, but let's analyze the complete situation:

if the update would have happened, last season, a user with a 10/12/4 player would:

1. most likely: want to benefit from his ca 10 power. that would make him renew the contract, to not receive the (approximately) 7% [UNH] penalty, therefore keeping his player;

2. second most likely: in case he doesn't want to renew, the user would have the [UNH] red warning in his sight, the entire season, making it extremely likely to renew, after the league matches were over, therefore keeping his player;

3. third and the most unlikely: he would not renew and despite the red warning, he would forget about renewing, at the end of the season, therefore losing his player.

i find the chance of that user to lose his player as extremely small, impossible to quantify into a penalty and impossible to decide to whom and why should it be applied.

and about you initial move, yes, it was right, just as i think mine was right and i don't think we should receive any award for doing what's right for our teams. nor anybody in this game.

[Kr10s]

First of all, let me thank you for "clearing" my name, i had my mind quiet because i didn't abused with those moderator rights i still have and asked to be removed more than once, i am always for an open discusssion 

Now, back to the main topic:

your proposal, with 250k per player or 2 mil fee is total injustice! you cannot claim that 250k per player is fair, because that would mean that every player was supposed to have a salary increase of about 14k.

I said it earlier and i will repeat it again: for some players, 250k as penalty is Ok, for some is wrong because they doesn't worth that much but for others, the price is ridiculous. The reason is simple: for any professional club, their players are their main capital, the players have a value in the market that can't be calculated based on their wage. Would you be happy if any other manager steals a player from your squad paying only 250k? We al know some players worth far more than a million, having such expensive players for free is not right. I would not expect them to be back for their real value, but something like this would be Ok:

Any player CA or LA lower than 6: Free
Any player CA or LA 7: 150k fine
Any player CA or LA 8: Around 200k
Any player CA or LA 9: 500k fine
Any player CA or LA 10 or higher: 1.5M fine.

A LA 10 player can be hired paying around 3M with some luck (they are easier to find for 4M up to 7M), and a CA10 player can be sold at 7M or a lot more, depending on other circumstances, paying 1.5M for having any of these back seems like a decent penalty for me.

the income generated by them playing allows you to keep playing so you should stop being so ungrateful and stop asking for them to be punished

With that logic, stop aking for "that" cheater to be punished, the game runs because he is GKO main sponsor after all.
It's the same: people mostly doesn't pay to keep the game running, they pay for an ingame advantage and we all deal with that advantage as they can (they got what they buy), never forget that.
If GKO would have a supporter system without ingame advantage, in would be greatful with them. Should i also be greateful for their better youth and for watching my team as an open book? I don't think so.

if your team is running perfect, why do you support penalizing others? they obviously don't run their teams perfect, so let them be.

Because i am not the only manager that renewed their players contracts, paid a lot more during a whole season and that is NOT fair for them, you should also place in other manager's position too.

[mihut]

i've already covered my position regarding getting high value players back. see the last post, with the 3 possible scenarios. my conclusion stand. you can't know what a user would do, if he would have the red [UNH] warning for the entire season. he might just renew, at the end of the season or at the first hour after the update. and the update is one of the regular things that were supposed to happen and it should be written in the rules, if the rules would be updated. it's normal to remind the users about contracts and also normal for a player to ask for a higher wage, if his skills are better, or else, just play 7% worse.

that concludes the fairness and necessity of having the [UNH] update.

about zsoca, the main romanian cheater, i'm kinda used to him cheating and i'm punishing him the only way i can, without breaking the rules: i mots him. i know admin will not punish him, but, from time to time, i need to remind other of his actions. he has taken another approach: he stopped writing on the romanian chat, so that the romanian users would forget him, so he can stay out of the spotlight.

however, the 2 situations cannot be similar. the cheaters do something wrong, intentionally, to destroy other user's fun, while those that lost players didn't do it intentionally and they had no intention to destroy other user's fun of playing the game. they were victims of admin's failure to run an update.

i understand that the users that lost players have an advantage, now, in keeping the players with the same salary. i agree, it's not fair for them to keep those salaries, but i'm ok with it, given the alternative of them not having the players in their teams and leaving the game.

that's why i keep saying: just let them be. it's the smaller worse of the 2 situations.

[mihut]

ps: i wasn't thinking of you deleting my messages. i know you are better than that

you should add to that list of persons that are able to delete posts:
1. admin
2. moderators
3. the creator of the post
4. the creator of the topic

[Kr10s]

I don't know if you read my previous comments, i wasn't against the rollback, i understand that in a "normal" game, your players are out of contract and you lose them, but considering that GKO is not "normal", the exception was needed.

However i must remind you that our managerial duties includes controlling our player's contract... sould you ask a rollback if:

You lose a match because you forgot to set the tactic?
Training update didn't happened one night?
You forgot to change a player's training a whole season?
You forgot upgrading a facitlity when league matches ended?
You forgot to pull youth players from academy?

And i could go on.... but in all of these situations, it's the same scenario for all.

Also, i must remind you that, even for a newbie who never saw UNH status before, the game gave him 3 SEASONS (more than a year) to check when their player's contract were expiring, GKO is a slow paced game, you have far enough time to realize where you are into, before you lose your players.

That's why i don't share your opinion.

[mihut]

i assume your questions are rhetorical.

i believe that, judging by evidence given by the disaster that just happened, the unh status is a necessity much greater that any one of us conceived. newbies or seasoned users, such an enormous amount of them needed that unh status to remind them to renew the contracts. and yes, i do consider that almost all of them lost players by accident, not because they wanted to save money and wait until the end of the season.

i don't know if other games do the same, reminding every season about the renewal. i'm curious, are there games that leave this issue completely on the user's shoulders, without providing any kind of a warning that they are about to lose a players, in case they don't take action?

[marctiello]

I hope that you get any notification about your car assurance expiration...if not, please check it right now because driving a car with no assurance, in many countries it's a crime!! 

Come on guys, unhappy or not unhappy status is just a detail...Anyway, now that all uncareful managers have been forgiven, let's look forward and wish an happy season to all of You!! 

[jemseed]

there is no justice

The rollback cost me 60K

I have an old player that could not be released or sold so I did not renew his contract. Now he is still on my team and still cannot be released or sold (2/5/1) and it will cost me 60K in wages this season!
 

[mihut]

I hope that you get any notification about your car assurance expiration...if not, please check it right now because driving a car with no assurance, in many countries it's a crime!! 

Come on guys, unhappy or not unhappy status is just a detail...Anyway, now that all uncareful managers have been forgiven, let's look forward and wish an happy season to all of You!! 

as a matter of fact, the insurance agent calls me a few weeks before renewal, every year, to arrange a day when i can pay for the next year. he works on commission, so it's his best interest, also.

there is no justice

The rollback cost me 60K

I have an old player that could not be released or sold so I did not renew his contract. Now he is still on my team and still cannot be released or sold (2/5/1) and it will cost me 60K in wages this season!
 

sorry, buddy! have you tried writing to admin and explain that you intentionally allowed his contract to expire and you wanted him fired? maybe he will fire him, for you.

i hope he will take care of your problem.

[JFK101]

A question for all who made a post: anything to do in real life???