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General Category => Suggestions/Bugs => Topic started by: Alex on November 11, 2013, 07:21:17 PM

Title: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2013, 07:21:17 PM
I ask with this post to improve the game engine. I understand that the random factor must always be but, unlike other menageriali, in this and 'disproportionate making the results of the matches absurd. I write this because I believe the structure of the game and good enough a little 'more' of realism to improve it further. I apologize for this outburst but, in diverdi years of playing I won and lost games amazing but now I'm really tired of wasting time with the study of tactics at all realizing that 'more' important lucky that the ability 'of the player .  8)
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Littmann on November 11, 2013, 07:59:34 PM
You're not right.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: johnblasa on November 11, 2013, 08:20:11 PM
Alex mayb eyou've a part of reasons, if you see my last match in national cup happened to everyone this impossible random results, but we're angry always when we lose, noone ask the changing of engine game when he win all matches... By the way the engine of game after all this season need some changes like possibility of choose players change position and tactics during the match also during the injuries and red cards and other things to adjust this game in some peculiar aspects....
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Drifter on November 11, 2013, 09:46:41 PM
 ;) I hear you brother. I know exactly how you feel. If you are anything like me, you are more interested in understanding why this is happening and the "LUCKY WIN" theory is something you and I just don't buy into. It's an engine so it must have some defining factors. Sure, if the admin want to admit that such a thing exists but doesn't want to be forthcoming about how it works, fine... but we should at least know how much of a factor this "LUCK" really has against solid tactics and well trained players.
It's unfortunate to lose but losing can be a good thing especially when it points out areas for improvement. When it does come and the reason is "you were unlucky... it happens to everyone" is the explanation for that loss, that doesn't point to where the team can improve nor do I think it is helpful to the quality of the game itself.
I think we should have a better understanding of how the results are actually calculated where "LUCK" is concerned. I say "LUCK" because this is how the phenomena has been labeled when ever it seems to happen to my team. Personally, I would prefer a more logical explanations to such happenings.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 11, 2013, 11:02:35 PM
hat's right, to lose their mistakes and 'correct and' constructively for the continuation of the game. If the game is based on luck alone one or the other then it has no future.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Ruta on November 11, 2013, 11:28:21 PM
;) I hear you brother. I know exactly how you feel. If you are anything like me, you are more interested in understanding why this is happening and the "LUCKY WIN" theory is something you and I just don't buy into. It's an engine so it must have some defining factors. Sure, if the admin want to admit that such a thing exists but doesn't want to be forthcoming about how it works, fine... but we should at least know how much of a factor this "LUCK" really has against solid tactics and well trained players.
It's unfortunate to lose but losing can be a good thing especially when it points out areas for improvement. When it does come and the reason is "you were unlucky... it happens to everyone" is the explanation for that loss, that doesn't point to where the team can improve nor do I think it is helpful to the quality of the game itself.
I think we should have a better understanding of how the results are actually calculated where "LUCK" is concerned. I say "LUCK" because this is how the phenomena has been labeled when ever it seems to happen to my team. Personally, I would prefer a more logical explanations to such happenings.
LUCK as  I see is your favourite word :P . But it is just a word. Is easiest to say Luck then probability. There is always a chance to win for everyone. For me it is good, more it is a must. If weak teams would have no chance to win with stronger ones tell me the reason to play this game for them? I have one or two games a season when I loose . It is 1/2 to 50 games I am playing. I don't know if it is much or not for you . For me it is okey.

MOTS is a very much problem. Without penalty Cups are very lottery. This season in WCC is also demaged by MOTS. This is real problem
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 12, 2013, 09:08:08 AM
Even Mots allow more teams' weak to win. 2 times may have this chance  So you should be in favor  ;) ..... But when there Mots it 'wrong tactic to justify a defeat in the cup there is' a MAJOR problem with the game engine. Might as well make the team at random and then see who wins  >:(
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Ruta on November 12, 2013, 09:27:43 AM
Might as well make the team at random and then see who wins  >:(
Yeah , or just don't play matches. Lets give points from mini game cause people better know who is better and should win. This way it is possible to choose a champion  of the league and so on... Ok, I am joking, it is ridiculous.

As I said there is some random in everything and should be. Every football manager I play : Hattrick, Trophy Manager is random factor cause it is all about football . One goal means victory or defeat.

If you want something different you should play basketball  or volleyball manager where one shot don't makes a victory/ defeat result .
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: eishner on November 12, 2013, 11:33:05 AM
Yes, he is right, the results in gokickoff are not realistic and also the tactic and the score is absolutety disastrous. Here if a team scores 1st in a match he will win in the 99,99% of the cases, there are not comebacks, there are not emotions, the score most happened is always 4:0, ...

There are some reasons for not have new users in the last years, we are the same users since the begining of the game, no new users are joining gokickoff and when we quit the game there won't be even competition.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Kr10s on November 12, 2013, 12:25:19 PM
There is a team in argentinian top level with an interesting comment on its page: "Losers search excuses, winners searches solutions"....

It might sound arrogant, i am aware of it, but i agree with Ruta: there is a random element in the game, but most things happens with a reason, starting to understand why you lose is the first step to achieve victory.

"There are no combacks" hahaha: www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=5939619

Sometimes, a substitution or a change tactic (such a change in focus  passing, as i did) can make a difference, it is up to you to try something different depending each situtation, but of course, blaming luck is a lot easier....
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 12, 2013, 12:44:26 PM
Exactly! If it were that 'the game would be exceptional. But sometimes (too many) not 'so' and sometimes reaches the absurd. When a team more 'strong (many hearts in more') with tactical guessed (all blue arrows red arrows against the other team) lost against a team that also does not use the Mots and play in 9 not 'matter of "finding solutions "and 'that this game has some huge mistakes and limitations, which if not resolved depart users to other games, where in addition to a little' luck there is a lot of technique and ability '. I like to win but I am the first to applaud the opponent who beats me because 'more' strong or clever but if you beat me and 'the game itself then I do not like.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Kr10s on November 12, 2013, 06:38:28 PM
Exactly! If it were that 'the game would be exceptional. But sometimes (too many) not 'so' and sometimes reaches the absurd. When a team more 'strong (many hearts in more') with tactical guessed (all blue arrows red arrows against the other team) lost against a team that also does not use the Mots and play in 9 not 'matter of "finding solutions "and 'that this game has some huge mistakes and limitations

If the strongest would win always, this would be too boring. Some managers might find the "i beat everyone easily" fun, but i like challenges, despite my team is one of the strongest teams in argentinian top level, i didn't prepare 2 matches properly and i might lose the league because of them, that exitement is what i love more, i can't do more mistakes, i might lose a couple of points because of luck (my rivals can lose points too), but if i would be absolutely sure that i will get the remaining 18 points just because i'm stronger, then it might be too boring.

There is a random factor in the engine, i am okay with it, i don't mind losing a few points because bad luck, but luck rarely is the reason i lose, and i like it!

Do you know wich factor is luck based (and i hate it), that's a penalty shootout: you might have a keeper skilled in PK saving and great set piece takers and still, you might lose without a real explanation, if i could know wich players were picked to shoot (players i didn't pick) and wich players missed, at least i could know if i did wrong... a small comment saying who wins is not enough for me...
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Drifter on November 12, 2013, 07:59:23 PM
 ;) I don't mind the random element if this is actually what is happening, as long as it isn't happening to me  :D. But really, I would prefer to think that there is some formula to this random element and also things that can be done to prevent it from happening. At some point, random just doesn't seem to me a good explanation of what is happening.
How do I improve on random events... what do I learn from the match.... answer to both, not much. Maybe it has something to do with the other team, their record, momentum.... something. I want those facts because frankly, I would like to do an Arsenal, Juventis or Ajax and have an undefeated season. Random seems to make that seem less of a possibility.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Sopelana on November 12, 2013, 08:37:10 PM
Completely agree with Carlos, once again. Many people complain about things they do not understand or believe that understand.

Like he said:

"Losers search excuses, winners searches solutions"

Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: daniele2607 on November 12, 2013, 09:24:42 PM
 ;)I agree with you that the random is right that there is, however, must remain a chance to become the norm ... if it does not go well! ... and more than anyone has as a rule is a conditional unfortunately .... a little too heavy at the moment, limit it would not hurt a bit! 8)
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 12, 2013, 10:06:19 PM
Dear sopelana you who did not understand the point of this post. I do not seek excuses but suggest improvements! It 'obvious to anyone with a modicum of objectivity' that in this game the factor "case" and 'sometimes too! Would be sufficient to reduce it to make it more 'realistic. Who loses rightly wrong tactic, but when you lose the better team and you have the right tactics and 'just absurd.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Team China on November 13, 2013, 02:20:16 AM
You're not right. You'd better check your tactics setting and maybe you will find why you cannot win such an easy game.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Sopelana on November 13, 2013, 07:01:26 AM
Dear sopelana you who did not understand the point of this post. I do not seek excuses but suggest improvements! It 'obvious to anyone with a modicum of objectivity' that in this game the factor "case" and 'sometimes too! Would be sufficient to reduce it to make it more 'realistic. Who loses rightly wrong tactic, but when you lose the better team and you have the right tactics and 'just absurd.

Hi Alex, I don't say it for your case or any other in particular. I understood the case perfectly. I only say that some users, in this game and other like this, always complain about they must win because they are better than his/her opponent. There are always a few macthes where the luck make you lose, without another explanation (and it must be in this way, random factor must exits, like someone said if always win the strongest team, we don't need to play). But, sometimes, we lose because of our  tactics and our opponents (probably even the remote chance of having our rival). Our rival plays his best to have the better chance to win us, or draw, with his/her high probability. 

Carlos, for example is an extraordinary tactics user. He always study the game, and opponents. He has a great team, and good knowledge of the game, that is the first important thing to understand what's happens in matches, or why the match goes on that way.

We learn so much more with lose matches, than with victories. In fact, like I said many times in my national forum, in B and Top Level is where we really begin to understand the game. In WCC too, because team level are so similar, than one tactic can make you win or lose. The tactic is one that can make you win the game on your side or not!. When you are on low levels, you win easyly, thinking that you are better than really you are.

Just one example (it happens to me):

See theese matches:

http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6124351

http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6772363


In the first one, I lost 0-1. Only one shoot on goal of my rival. I'm sure that I will lose league because of that match. In the second one, in cup vs the same team, he played mots, I won 0-2. Do you know what changes? In first macth, I played with reserves, too much hearts than my rival, but no so much quality than main team. Should I win 1st match? Yes, but I didn't my best, I reserved main team for WCC. Conclusion: If I want to win my league I can't reserve main team (the same as Carlos).
 
So, this is nothing personal, is just my humble opinion, not better than others  here, but I think so.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2013, 10:41:25 AM
I repeat: If I lose because:
1) Mots
2) My tactical errors
blame me 'ONLY and this leads me to my migliorami year after year.

If I lose important games where for example:
1) Opponent does not play Mots
2) the initial value of my team 'of top 3.5 3 hearts against hearts
3) The tactics are in my favor (5 blue arrows) compared with 6 red arrows
4) my opponent is going to the additional 9
5) my doors and 'more' strong in the skill of the rigors
6) My Players' are stronger in the skill of the finalization
7 / It is played on neutral ground

So it's not 'matter to be experts in tactics or less ... I think! Even the most 'experienced and enthusiastic player could not win.
To end I say, I want her to win, as in other management, the manager more 'BRAVO no more than' LUCKY as now happens. Greetings.
So it will not change 'anything ......
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Kr10s on November 13, 2013, 11:19:25 AM
So, for you i lost this match (http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=5977388) because i were unlucky?

This is one of the matches i said i didn't prepare properly, my internet connection didn't work on matchday and i couldn't change the tactic.
I rarely use AML against Chespis, i always use ML because i know his right is strongest (see my previous 3 matches against him), individual arders were wrong (strikers were ordered to use dribbling often, despite i knew he would try to defend i didn't use long shots mostly) so i played an easy match for him. I didn't say anything in public that day and i never blamed luck, i played an important match with the wrong tactic and i lost because of it.

At first sight, my tactic was perfect (higher AAoP & APoP), better marking, effective pressing and roaming, right philosophy) and i made many things wrong!!!!! I didn't lose because i were unlucky, i lost because i gave him enough room to attack me using his strongest side, and he played mostly there and i didn't attacked him properly!

As i said before, things happens for a reason, just watching post match report is not enough, some things are not displayed at first sight... it is up to you to find out why.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2013, 12:17:09 PM
I understand the final report is not 'everything and you're right. But do not think that the displacement of a single giocaote AML to ML is crucial, in reality 'but in this game you do not. And then as you know, when the "Game" decides that the goalkeeper (often mediocre) becomes Superman then pull 20 times in the door that you do not make goal! I believe that this has happened at all.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Kr10s on November 13, 2013, 12:39:31 PM
Well:

First of all, ML and AML should be very different if they're trained properly (scout them and you'll know what i mean) so yes, if i would've used a ML, i should've received at least a goal less.
Secondly... That's not a mediocre keeper,  he's Argentina NT keeper, we won season 8 World Cup with him playing all matches so i had to attack properly or my scoring chances would be low, i made shots in the box mostly, my opponent placed 3 DC (good players btw), i made many shots, but most of them were uncomfortable. That made his defense more efficient.

In a match like that, my chances to score were a lot higher in set pieces or long shots than shooting uncomfortable in the box, he became in superman for a reason and i am okay with it.

And in my opinion it should be like this, if dominating team would have the same scoring rate than those who rarely attack (in counter attack mostly) matches should end with bigger results and it would be even less realistic: IRL the keeper that belongs to the weaker squad always work a lot more than the strongest teams's keeper, big team's keepers proves to be good when they have a low goal against ratio, despite they receive less shots, why? Because oponent's chances are usually clearer (it's not the same shooting against a team packed in defense than attacking in counter attack, with plenty space and many times with only few defenders to stop you).

BTW, i need a better keeper, i am working on it :P
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2013, 01:18:43 PM
I admire your expertise Carlos but I assure you that you're not the only one to lose a lot of time on the choice of patterns and tactics. Unfortunately I am one of those ..... and that 's why I'm tired of seeing games decided by random. Random or luck that there must be, but not like now that sometimes it 'the most' important. Just give more 'importance to the tactics, with the possibility' of schema change during the game maybe, and less to luck. X example:
2 teams of similar value, which play a balanced game with the right tactics and 'obvious that both the random to decide who wins.
But if the team more 'strong plays with the right tactics, pulling on goal throughout the game, most ball possession ect and the other defends himself with only a goalkeeper who becomes superman ..... I think it's just random unfortunately.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Aizen on November 13, 2013, 02:12:06 PM
I think there are some randomness in this game, but not always. If you set your tactic correctly, it raises your chance to win, but not a always guarantee. In season 6, USA won the world cup with mostly young players that have less skills and experiences compared to other nations. We won it because I set the suitable tactic for each match to raise my chance to win.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Kr10s on November 13, 2013, 03:52:06 PM
@Alex

I believe we have very different ways to see how things are, i understood this when i saw the way you consider ML and AML, something tells me that we won't get anything from this disussion... I stopped blaming luck long time ago and i think you're not going to change your point of view.

So good luck mate, i wish your luck improves  :(
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Alex on November 13, 2013, 04:34:45 PM
We have different points of view but it does not matter. Have a nice life, and instill this' just a little game .... ;D
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Drifter on November 13, 2013, 07:52:26 PM
 ;) I still don't believe in luck. I still believe that when you take a loss, there are some factors that determine that you are the loser. I believe that these factors have a lot to do with moral, winning mentality, experience and other factors. How these affect the result of matches is unclear to me.
It's nice to win matches you think you should lose, but hard to swallow when you seem dominant in all areas of play. I don't mind luck being a factor if it is always counteracted by skill. Managers who spend long hours breaking down teams with effective tactics should not be punished by this. Teams selecting poor tactics should rule themselves out for victory. The match break down isn't everything but it should be. It should accurately represent what actually happened in the match. You can't have four arrows up for marking if someone breaks away from your defense and scores. To me, you didn't get four blue arrows at all... maybe a red arrow down since obviously this style of play was a mistake since obviously you were scored on. Player scores should also reflect this so that managers can identify who or what went wrong. Premium members will understand this best as they are often able to get good information about what to expect in matches.
It is what it is and many will have opposing opinions on this matter. Personally, I think more favor should be giving to good tactical decisions and less to this "LUCK" factor that everyone talks about.
Still waiting for an explanation on how this "LUCK" is calculated or if when it does happen, if it doesn't matter about tactical choices you make.
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: Sir Vio Ferguson on November 15, 2013, 07:55:01 AM
I lost few matches this season in a critical way, but you know I'm not complaining about it, even if I lost my chance to play in WCC qualifiers, I'll show you some exemples:
http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6110008
http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6110040
http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6110056
http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6110108

...and a couple of draws, but here I am fighting to my last chance, preparing the next match apart from past
Title: Re: No more games from the absurd result
Post by: panjcof on November 17, 2013, 11:38:30 AM
Well these things happen in real life you know...  ::)
If you want this game to be realistic you must accept it  :)
look what happened to me in cup match http://www.gokickoff.com/team_match_detail.php?match_id=6771983