Author Topic: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp  (Read 7172 times)

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Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« on: July 20, 2013, 02:58:56 PM »
We need establish a rule that is similar with real world: even small club can hunt great youth player, which make the quality of youth be random, not been by investment. Those big clubs have got much more good youth by academy. Youth camp should be a gift for everyone.

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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2013, 03:12:24 PM »
 ;)
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 07:11:31 AM »
Yes...you can find some really good youth players in the transfer market...just upgrade your scouts and spend some quality time there. TBH the youth camps provide new opportunities in the transfer market since many high LA players are in the game with very low CA; you can get some very good deals for such players but it takes some effort. Good luck!
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 01:15:46 PM »
Yes...you can find some really good youth players in the transfer market...just upgrade your scouts and spend some quality time there. TBH the youth camps provide new opportunities in the transfer market since many high LA players are in the game with very low CA; you can get some very good deals for such players but it takes some effort. Good luck!
Brain, You're right, but we now all know that. But when the youth camp by Admin included in this game, there was no information that we now know. At the beginning of the creation of youth camp was not explained precisely what we get and that's why a lot of negative comments and dissatisfaction for them!
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 04:22:37 PM »
It is true there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the current youth camp system, and I agree it could use some serious reforms. However, youth camps shouldn't guarantee good players like the OP suggests. Here are some of my ideas:

- until there is a "delete camp" button, youth camps should guarantee at least LA4 players regardless of national/club investment. These LA2-3 players are simply unacceptable if the youth camps cannot be removed.

- there should be some choice of player/position like with academy.  I'd like to see youth camps provide 3 players each round from which one may be selected. unselected players could be fired or left in youth camp for up to 1 season (2 following rounds). That way a youth camp could have up to 7 (or 9) players to choose from in a given round.

- youth camp players should not be automatically signed by the team. If all the options are worthless, we shouldn't have to pay a release fee on top of weekly investments. Thus the option to not select any players should be available.

- players from youth camps should be younger, on average, perhaps 15-17 with an average age of 16
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2013, 05:50:49 PM »
It is true there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the current youth camp system, and I agree it could use some serious reforms. However, youth camps shouldn't guarantee good players like the OP suggests. Here are some of my ideas:

- until there is a "delete camp" button, youth camps should guarantee at least LA4 players regardless of national/club investment. These LA2-3 players are simply unacceptable if the youth camps cannot be removed.

- there should be some choice of player/position like with academy.  I'd like to see youth camps provide 3 players each round from which one may be selected. unselected players could be fired or left in youth camp for up to 1 season (2 following rounds). That way a youth camp could have up to 7 (or 9) players to choose from in a given round.

- youth camp players should not be automatically signed by the team. If all the options are worthless, we shouldn't have to pay a release fee on top of weekly investments. Thus the option to not select any players should be available.

- players from youth camps should be younger, on average, perhaps 15-17 with an average age of 16

Brian, All your suggestions are excellent !!!! ;)
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2013, 07:06:29 PM »

- there should be some choice of player/position like with academy.  I'd like to see youth camps provide 3 players each round from which one may be selected. unselected players could be fired or left in youth camp for up to 1 season (2 following rounds). That way a youth camp could have up to 7 (or 9) players to choose from in a given round.

- youth camp players should not be automatically signed by the team. If all the options are worthless, we shouldn't have to pay a release fee on top of weekly investments. Thus the option to not select any players should be available.

8)

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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2013, 11:21:01 PM »
Brian as always has come up with some very pragmatic suggestions. Normally I agree 100% with him but not this time.

Nobody asked for this development and one has to ask: what is the purpose of it? Arsenal (China) is right there is nothing about this development that that appears to relate to real life football management. I think the purpose is two-fold:

1) They have thrown us a curveball. We all like the easy life where we think we know exactly how much we will invest and what we will get back for it. This development breaks that mould. It means for example some of the very best players will go not to the long standing managers who are dominating the game but to the newish wannabees  who are prepared shortcut the long run strategy of  investing in youth camps to take a gamble on youth camps

2) As another manager said a while back this is probably a GKO  anti-inflationary device. Alex from Riga Goldwings recently shared with us that over 175 million G has been invested in the Brazil youth camp alone, so maybe around 1-2 billion has been invested in total. That is 1-2 billion that would otherwise been spent on inflating players fess and wages. I really think this is the answer - because they have devised such a harsh system that encourages us to bid against each other, without giving us any information about camps before we join and with a random selection date to create further uncertainty and at the same time only rewarding the winners of this high risk race. Think of the poor Chinese manager in In Tajikstan who invested 2.6m but lost the "race" by just 200k, the winner got a LA9 player but our friend got an LA3 - harsh? Evil more like it. The only thing in my experience I can compare this system to, is when many Governments across the world auctioned off 3G licences: some Teclos paid so much that they nearly went broke - why ? Because they were in competition and could not risk being left without a licence. Just like us: we are so desperate to get that LA 10 or now LA11 that we will pay millions to get a shot.

So I don't think this is a development that should be changed to suit the majority of us, rather we need to accept this is an alternative strategy that we can pursue or not. Many of us, including me,  want out but remember there are also plenty of winners with LA9s, LA10s and LA11s and of course the wise heads who instead of investing in youth camps this last season have be sensibly buying cheaper players and building traditional facilities. The status quo suits all of these managers.

So wise up everyone: the streets are not paved with gold - success will come to those who consistently make the best decisions i.e - the best mangers.

AS I have said elsewhere - many of us will abandon youth camps when we get the chance but many of us will then be back here whinging about other managers picking up LA11s - that's life folks!
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 02:18:36 AM »
The youth camp feature is not entirely novel in GKO. It is partially a replacement for the old, and horridly unfair, academy system which allowed premium managers to acquire additional players from their academies. Now we can only get 7 players from the academy but can build youth camps to acquire those additional players. Of course, no one asked for the development, but some alternative was needed to introduce new players in the game in a fairer way that did not favor only premium managers.


1) Youth camps are much fairer than the old system (in terms of opportunity) and I welcome that. However, it is important to remember that those "long standing managers who are dominating the game" are the same ones which are able to invest the most in youth camps and thereby get the best players. There is actually a big assurance in the youth camp feature: If you invest millions in a nation with hundreds of investors and hundreds of millions invested, and reach one of the top few ranks in the nation, you will get a youth prodigy. In Spain and Argentina, two of the most heavily invested-in nations for youth camps, of the 4 biggest investors in each (all of whom received LA8 or better players in both rounds) all but one have club ratings over 6,000, very good or better academies, and currently reside in the top half of their nation's top level league.  Sadly this GKO youth camp system relates considerably to real life football management. Here in the States, there are several youth camps/development centers in my area that are sponsored by (mainly English) clubs. Not surprisingly, all of them are sponsored by Premier League clubs. Most are sponsored by the biggest and wealthiest clubs, especially Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and, increasingly, Man City. Similarly, the biggest investors in GKO youth camps are the biggest and wealthiest GKO clubs.

2) To be clear: I have no problem with the general allocation of player quality from the youth camps that many have complained about except that I sympathize with managers who are unable to rid their teams of unwanted youth camps and the low quality players their small investments provide. I don't think any of my suggestions would reduce the role of youth camps as an anti-inflationary device. In fact, I think some of them may actually encourage youth camp investment since they would make these investments more attractive without providing any real assurances. The fact of the matter is, the existing system seems likely to discourage investment the moment a "delete camp" option is supplied, as many teams will pack up some or all of their camps for good and redirect their funds to facility investment and the transfer market.

As a result, it is primarily older and stronger clubs that can afford the huge investment necessary to get those LA9-11 players, not noobs. As a result, like you, many (probably even a majority of) managers want to either quit, or heavily downsize their investment in, the youth camp game. The fewer camps there are, the less money will be absorbed by youth camps, and the less effective this feature will be at reducing inflation. Unless the developers make this option more attractive to everyone, I think it will undermine its purpose. Instead, youth camps will only serve to provide the biggest and wealthiest clubs a new way to acquire the best players and, ultimately, retain their dominance in the game.

What is needed to address these issues, more than anything I think, are a handful of LA8+ players that find their way to lower-ranked clubs at random. Not many, but maybe ~1% of clubs regardless of nation or investment. That way at least a small handful of these teams get a VERY pleasant surprise from their youth camps, providing a big (if risky) incentive to invest in them without feeling the need to be in one of the most heavily invested-in nations and the need to compete with the top 1/2 of 1 percent of investors in them, who will surely be only the biggest and wealthiest clubs in GKO.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 10:36:00 PM by Brian Clough »
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 07:17:07 AM »
Cheers Brian and thanks for such a comprehensive response.

For the record I don't mind your suggestions its just that in my opinion we don't need to make the youth camps better,  rather we mangers need to change our expectations of them - there are no free rides in this world!

IMO the best thing GKO can do is give us the cancel button and provide more information on how the formula works (what level of investment is required to product a LA8 etc), how much money is being invested in each country and what players are coming out of them? This info should be available for all.

And like Ruta - I fear for the impact this system will have on the International competitions in the long run.


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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 04:57:10 PM »
Indeed...a delete button is the first order of business, without question. However, I fear once it appears, the exodus from the youth camps will leave only the wealthiest teams behind to compete for high LA players in a handful of the biggest nations.

Not only will this undermine the function of the youth camp feature to fight inflation, but it will only widen the gap between the biggest clubs and the rest. My hope is that the developers are still experimenting with the feature and there is still some hope to salvage it before it's too late....
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2013, 09:47:44 PM »
 ;) Call my thinking a bit off if you want, but this idea of fairness keeps coming up in this forum.  Fairness is ideal, but it is certainly a debatable concept and one that does not naturally exist.  The idea of fairness needs to be regulated with rules for it to work but usually those rules are flawed creating again, an unfair situation.

 :-\ Maybe we should scrap the idea of fairness completely.  Instead of looking for fairness, a way of providing an environment that does not limit success is more in order.

 ::) As Brian stated, the moment Admin. provide the delete button, everyone will make a mass exit from this leaving the best players from this to go again to those players feeding at the very top of the cash pool.  The same thing happens in real life as the mega clubs only get bigger and bigger. 

 ;) Fact is, good management will always provide a way to improve the quality of your club. Those managers who decided not to join the youth system are singing right now because of all the cash they saved with such a good decision.  Sadly, I was not one of them, but I respect the fact that making this poor decision for my club has put the club in this situation.

 :( So the youth camps did not find the answers for our clubs.  So we are all mostly just throwing money away for very little return on our investments.  We all cheered when we heard youth camp and cry now because it didn't make the job of management easier.  Bite the bullet, pray for a cancel button but don't cry because we all made such a bad investment.  It won't be the last bad decision for many of us.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 09:51:56 PM by Drifter »
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 01:25:47 AM »
Great points, drifter. When I think of fairness, I try think of it in terms of opportunity rather than outcome, which the youth camp feature has been at least partially successful compared with the old academy system that only allowed premium managers additional youths each season.
 8)
However there are two major shortcomings of the youth camp system which I fear will affect its function in the game as well as international competition:

I think the "ideal" game feature should at least be interesting, fun, and relevant to most users while having some function in the game.  For me, the problem with the youth camp system has less to do with distribution/allocation of high LA players among teams than its ability to constrain inflation and play a meaningful role for most players in the game. To do that, it must be interesting to most players and have relevance to players across the GKO spectrum regardless of club's age, wealth, or success. Once the delete button finally comes, the youth camp system (as it is now) will primarily be used by larger and wealthier clubs in the game, which represent a minority of GKO users. More importantly, the anti-inflation function will be reduced significantly as fewer and fewer managers invest in youth camps.

Furthermore, the youth camp feature discriminates against "tiny" nations with few investors. This implies that great players can only come with great investment. In reality, great players can and should come from even the tiniest nations regardless of investment, which the current youth camp system prevents, at great detriment to the competitiveness of those nations and international competition in general.

I don't know if my suggestions can solve these issues, but I think they could help, at least, without significantly substituting "fairness of outcome" for "fairness of opportunity" for managers or nations.
 ;)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 06:08:33 AM by Brian Clough »
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2013, 04:25:33 PM »
absolutely agree, if now there is a great difference between countries concerning selections and equipment, for many people who play this game in each country.
now also benefit from being able to do even better players
only 5-6 countries finally won the world, as also will influence more difference even exists between rich and poor teams
already exists on the sale of players, many players for sale, little money to buy
and camps and extra 3 players can take those paying
there is a ridiculous amount of sale, although values ??down by an oversupply .. few good players may purchase

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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2013, 04:33:21 PM »
 :(  Yes, it is sad how the countries with smaller numbers of investors are discriminated against.  Those managers who have invested in countries with smaller numbers of investors are certainly at a disadvantage in this current system on youth camps.  Brian makes a good point when he mentions how good players come from all parts of the world regardless of investment.  Money does help promote good youth programs, but some of the best players we have ever seen came from places where there was little to no youth investment at all. 

 :-\  I do agree that investment should be rewarded, but I don't believe that there should be a handicap for investors who choose to look outside of the powerhouse nations for good talent.  Some balance should be found between investment and luck.
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2013, 07:13:35 PM »
What would you think if the game provide ability based on more aspects than just total investment?

To be honest, i don't find the current camp players attractive, and it's not just because i can't promote high LA players to my country, i find many things i don't like in them (for a LA9 player, CA1 is too low compared with their age and low PR), i would spend more money in camps if i could get a 17yo player 3/8+/4+ or a 15yo 1/8+/4+, to me, youth camps players doesn't convince me at all.

I think we could all be satisfied if youth camp players's quality should be determined considering many factors:

Number of camps in each country: Once a country reaches 100 camps, LA7 players can be received, once a country reaches 300 camps, LA8 players are received and so on. That would make all countries attractive, people wouldn't need other managers investing large amounts of money, just people investing there!
Current facilities level: Maybe Good (or higher) training facilities should grant higher CA levels (maybe 1 CA point when training groud reaches good and another CA point when fitness center reaches good level). Almost every GKO user can get good training facilities, and i think all off us would apreciate highers CA levels than just 1.
Current academy level: Crossing the Good academy level, youth players should be LA5 as minimum.

I wouldn't consider the chance that each extra facility level provides a higher CA/LA level, just set good level as minimum requirement to get an extra, that's all. So a team with Good level facilities could have the same chance to receive quality than a team higher level facilities, but all teams should be pushed to invest in good academy level as minimum (as a proof that this team is interested in youth team) .

And finally (and most important) not consider just each club's total investment, just do a calculation based on money spent, also how much money could invest a team, based only in 1 parameter basic for each club category, tickets income maybe?.

Let's say that this season my club received around 8M in tickets and i invested 1,5M in camps, that represents 18,75% of the total tickets income.
Now, compare it with a lower division team, (of course they can't get 8M in tickets) let's say another team received 4M and spent 1M in camps, that club invested 25% of his total ticket incomes. That club should have bigger chances to receive high LA players than me, he made a bigger sacrifice than me after all, what do you think about it?

I think a system like that should reward teams investing money on facilities and also, provide a fairer enviroment to lower division teams, and also would keep bigger clubs deciding where to spend their money, if they want big quality in camps, they should sacrifice some money in market, if they want quality in market, they should forget about camps because their avg. invested would be low.

What do you think about it?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 03:08:00 AM by CarlosT »
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2013, 09:20:38 PM »
Carlos, your suggestions are very good, and acceptable, based on logical principles. However, Youth camps are introduced in this game but without precise and clear rules of the admins. Many managers have invested very big money because they are believed to be from the camp to get the players in accordance with the money invested in the camps. Admin had prior work included Youth camps inform all managers with all the good and bad sides of investing in camps. Thus many managers became disillusioned.
 Admin must very urgent introduce cancel button, also should be enabled to return part of the money invested in the camps for the reasons I referred.
So many disappointed managers return to confidence in this interesting game. Admin of this should draw the conclusion that the introduction of new parts in the game must be precisely defined in order to avoid unintended consequences!
Regards!
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2013, 02:41:27 AM »
To be honest, i don't find the current camp players attractive, and it's not just because i can't promote high LA players to my country, i find many things i don't like in them (for a LA9 player, CA1 is too low compared with their age and low PR), i would spend more money in camps if i could get a 17yo player 3/8+/4+ or a 15yo 1/8+/4+, to me, youth camps players doesn't convince me at all.

+1  To be more attractive, youth camp players should be more variable, not just 1/X/4 players aged 17. At least, CA1 players created from youth camps should be 15 or 16 at most; more variability in CA and PR would be nice too.


I think we could all be satisfied if youth camp players's quality should be determined considering many factors:

Number of camps in each country: Once a country reaches 100 camps, LA7 players can be received, once a country reaches 300 camps, LA8 players are received and so on. That would make all countries attractive, people wouldn't need other managers investing large amounts of money, just people investing there!
Current facilities level: Maybe Good (or higher) training facilities should grant higher CA levels (maybe 1 CA point when training groud reaches good and another CA point when fitness center reaches good level). Almost every GKO user can get good training facilities, and i think all off us would apreciate highers CA levels than just 1.
Current academy level: Crossing the Good academy level, youth players should be LA5 as minimum.

I wouldn't consider the chance that each extra facility level provides a higher CA/LA level, just set good level as minimum requirement to get an extra, that's all. So a team with Good level facilities could have the same chance to receive quality than a team higher level facilities, but all teams should be pushed to invest in good academy level as minimum (as a proof that this team is interested in youth team) .

And finally (and most important) not consider just each club's total investment, just do a calculation based on money spent, also how much money could invest a team, based only in 1 parameter basic for each club category, tickets income maybe?.

Let's say that this season my club received around 8M in tickets and i invested 1,5M in camps, that represents 18,75% of the total tickets income.
Now, compare it with a lower division team, (of course they can't get 8M in tickets) let's say another team received 4M and spent 1M in camps, that club invested 25% of his total ticket incomes. That club should have bigger chances to receive high LA players than me, he made a bigger sacrifice than me after all, what do you think about it?

I think a system like that should reward teams investing money on facilities and also, provide a fairer enviroment to lower division teams, and also would keep bigger clubs deciding where to spend their money, if they want big quality in camps, they should sacrifice some money in market, if they want quality in market, they should forget about camps because their avg. invested would be low.

What do you think about it?

Personally, I'd prefer a system where all players are created equally (the same probabilities) but more investment gives more draws to choose from, one of which may be signed each cycle (2 per season). Camps could receive one player to choose from for every 50,000 G invested during the cycle, approximately the value of the minimum (5,000 G) weekly investment over half a season. 1M investment would yield 20 players (and thus a much better chance to find a good one) and so on. Players would remain available for 2 cycles (1 season) after which they are lost.

This system would still favor teams that invest the most (probabilistically) but there would always be a handful of lucky draws that go to teams and nations with relatively little investment in youth camps. More importantly it provides some choice for the manager.

« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 04:39:53 AM by Brian Clough »
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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2013, 10:49:01 PM »
We need establish a rule that is similar with real world: even small club can hunt great youth player, which make the quality of youth be random, not been by investment. Those big clubs have got much more good youth by academy. Youth camp should be a gift for everyone.

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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2013, 11:54:12 AM »
 ;) I think this is a good suggestion. We need some changes in the rules that would benefit a lot of us.

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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2013, 11:55:56 AM »
http://forum.gokickoff.com/index.php?topic=15664.msg112958;topicseen#new

I made one sugestion so please read and reply I hope that it will help, thanks!

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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2013, 06:36:43 PM »
 ;) I only see one problem with the youth camps as it stands. I think the disproportion of players to countries with larger amounts of investors shouldn't determine the quality of player received in each camp. That is just stupid to me.  As far as players receiving players with values far below their expectations, I think that is perfect and propose that the players from these camps get worse and not better. :D Why would I say that?  I think that the factor of luck should be a larger influence on youth camp development than investment or number of investors in a country. We see it happening all the time. Promising youth players are first signed by very small clubs only to be scouted by larger and then even larger clubs. 
Make it so that it is totally random and use the investment factor to give greater advantage to those larger investors, but not to the extent that they are immune to the dodgy player rule I have just suggested. The price of investment into youth camps should be the chance that these players will not become stars, will not become valuable, may never become good enough to play well.
That said, everything should be random. Player ages, values and limited abilities. I would be happy to see someone get a player with CA9 age 21 from a youth camp as well as a CA2 LA2 from a larger investment. That is closer to the reality of the situation.
This will also bridge the gap as it will be less advantageous to invest large amounts into youth camps, but still advantageous for clubs who really don't have anything left to do with the surplus cash they have laying around.
Let people with huge amounts of cash to spend, spend it in the market and let the youth camps operate as they were intended, to drain cash from the GKO market and drive down the inflation that runs ramped here.
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spamrulez

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Re: Suggest to change the rule of youth camp
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2013, 03:12:52 AM »
Let people with huge amounts of cash to spend, spend it in the market and let the youth camps operate as they were intended, to drain cash from the GKO market and drive down the inflation that runs ramped here.

Inflation? Where do you see inflation?  ::) :-\

I only see loss of money in buying and selling players.

We've got to spend money in structure and their maintenance.
I spent more than 28.000.000 in structures (accademy, training ground, player room, staff and so on), I spend about 4.000.000 in maintenance every season for it (staff wage is not included) and I spend no money in the youth camps.

Everytime I sell a player I pay about the 20% of what I earn in commission.

The final price of a good young player and his final price isn't really different if you consider that you have to pay the wage and a large amount of commission. It's not sure that you can gain a single G.

Several player with LA lower of 5 are sold for about 200 G (I bought a LA 4 for 150 G) when you can earn more than 1000 G with 20 points of energy and 1 single hour of waiting time.

You can buy several player or NT or U21NT for less than 1.000.000 when one single match could grant you an earning of 220.000 G (in a CX serie). Selling for 1.000.000 means earning about 800.000 when several millions are required for a single step in the stadium quality or anything.

Almost every single G in this game is throwed in a bottomless pit and doesn't reach any player.

How many of my G reached other players through the market? A bit less of 850.000 in these firse 9 seasons.
Spam Rulez manager of Astronomy Domine
an italian team since season 1