Author Topic: Suggestion - offside calculation change (Read 3805 times)

Brian Clough · « **on:** December 01, 2013, 05:14:51 AM »

Currently the defensive line's ability to execute the offside trap is based on the mean, or unweighted average, of all defenders:

Quote

Defender (Average of dl dr dc) : Positioning, Acceleration, Decisions, Teamwork

But I think this value should be based more on the lowest score than the mean. It only takes one defender to keep a player onsides and a defensive line is only as good as its worst player in this regard imho. Thus I would suggest using either:

- the lowest score of all defenders

OR

- a weighted average where the lowest value is inflated to represent half (50%) of it.

For example take these 4 hypothetical players:
Player Offside score
DL 50
DC 40
DC 55
DR 60

Current result is 51.25
first alternative result is 40 (lowest score)
second alternative result is 47.5 (40/2 + 50/6 + 55/6 + 60/6)

What do you think? Vote for your preference above.

marius.82 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 01, 2013, 07:57:02 AM »

make sense !

Kr10s · « **Reply #2 on:** December 01, 2013, 08:38:05 PM »

I mostly agree with your suggestion, i picked to consider the lowest skilled player, but any of those suggestions might have some sense.

However, there's another important factor that determinates how useful is the offside trap IRL, and it's not considered currently: defensive line.

In current GKO match engine, you can play contain strategy, very deep defensive line and it will have the same effectiveness than playing all out attack strategy, defensive line forward, no matther wich combination you pick (even all out attack/very deep), any combination works exactly the same and that is completely wrong.

In real life, if the distance between your keeper and the defenders is lower than 10mts, offside trap is impossible to execute, and if you play a high attacking style and your defenders are close the midfield in attacking situations (defensive line forward), execute an offside trap succesfully is really difficult (because any plyer behind the midfield doesn't need a defender to be onside). In other words, it's all about player's distribution in the field and also each playing situation.

So, i think that:

* The general offside trap formula should consider any of Brian's suggested changes.
* Offside trap should be disabled when playing very deep defensive line.
* Using offside trap and defensive line forward should have an extra penalty on its success rate, also the chance to avoid offside trap should be higher when playing counter-attack.

What do you guys think about it?

marius.82 · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2013, 03:04:57 PM »

i have a different opinion about your 3rd point. in modern footbal teams try to keep the lines close one of each other to let small spaces for the opponent team, that's why they play with the push up defensive line. so i think is no need for a penalty(if all 4 defenders have apropriate ability for this tactics).they should be punished by the teams with midfielders wich have high ability to make drill cross and strikers(AMC,AMR,AML,FC,FR,FL) able to avoid the offside trap

Drifter · « **Reply #4 on:** December 03, 2013, 05:09:48 PM »

Another thing that needs to be considered is the attackers and their abilities. It's fine if you want to target the weak defender but you should also consider the weakest attacker. To break the offside trap, there needs to be a passer and a receiver. Just because one of these players is good doesn't mean that the other has the skills needed. If we are considering the weakest defender, we need to also think about attackers who pass and make runs behind the defensive line. If the passer or the runner fails, the whole move fails. You can't target weak defenders without targeting weak attackers as well.

Brian Clough · « **Reply #5 on:** December 03, 2013, 11:28:52 PM »

Quote from: CarlosT on December 01, 2013, 08:38:05 PM

So, i think that:

* The general offside trap formula should consider any of Brian's suggested changes.
* Offside trap should be disabled when playing very deep defensive line.
* Using offside trap and defensive line forward should have an extra penalty on its success rate, also the chance to avoid offside trap should be higher when playing counter-attack.

What do you guys think about it?

I would agree that the offside trap should be disabled with very deep defensive line when using normal or defensive strategy and counter-attacking or, if not counter-attacking, using the most defensive, "conatain", strategy. Otherwise there is still a chance to break even a very deep defensive line, just a much smaller chance than with a higher back line. These conditions are closely related with your last points and iosifmarius's comment. I think iosifmarius is right, but only when the team is attacking as the (even very deep lying) defenders can become involved with the attack when one misplaced pass could leave the defensive line open to a through ball to break the offside trap. If not attacking, however, the back line won't become involved except to clear it out of the area and the offside trap should be disabled.

Quote from: Drifter on December 03, 2013, 05:09:48 PM

Another thing that needs to be considered is the attackers and their abilities. It's fine if you want to target the weak defender but you should also consider the weakest attacker. To break the offside trap, there needs to be a passer and a receiver. Just because one of these players is good doesn't mean that the other has the skills needed. If we are considering the weakest defender, we need to also think about attackers who pass and make runs behind the defensive line. If the passer or the runner fails, the whole move fails. You can't target weak defenders without targeting weak attackers as well.

sure...I think this is how it works now; the player receiving the ball has his own "action offside" score (speed, pace, off the ball) that is compared with the defensive line calculation. Similarly, the quality of the pass is determined by passing scores and counter attacking abilities:

Quote from: Game Manual

Counter Attack (Short) :

Player who launches a counter attack : Passing, Creativity
First Attacker : Passing, Off the ball, Acceleration, Pace
Second Attacker : Passing, Off the ball, Acceleration, Pace
Defender : Positioning, Tackling, Marking, Acceleration, Pace

Counter Attack (Long) :

Player who launches a counter attack : Crossing, Creativity
Players who run for the ball : Off the ball, Acceleration, Pace
Defender : Positioning, Tackling, Marking, Acceleration, Pace

spamrulez · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2013, 02:50:27 PM »

Why it should change completely?

What about that team that use off side with profency as a main tactics? They should change all of their defensive line up?
Why?

Kr10s · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2013, 03:14:46 PM »

Quote from: spamrulez on December 04, 2013, 02:50:27 PM

Why it should change completely?

Nobody is asking to change it completely, as far as i know, every single player trained to play offside trap would still be useful with those suggestions.
Nobody is asking to change it completely, we're asking to improve it and perform in a more realistic way whan it does now.

chefo · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2013, 08:47:17 PM »

Hm, wouldn't this change actually be a nerf to "offside trap" or am I understanding it wrong?

I mean that feature is bad as it is, I agree it needs a rework but in a positive way. Currently you'd mostly use it when your defense line is obviously WAY better than your opponent's offense but in this case you might as well not use it at all. Not only because your defenders should do fine in stopping attacks on their own but also because you're adding another "random % event" which can turn out at your disadvantage.

I voted for the 3rd option but I pretty much find offside trap useless either way.

Brian Clough · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2013, 07:24:58 AM »

Quote from: chefo on December 04, 2013, 08:47:17 PM

Hm, wouldn't this change actually be a nerf to "offside trap" or am I understanding it wrong?

I mean that feature is bad as it is, I agree it needs a rework but in a positive way. Currently you'd mostly use it when your defense line is obviously WAY better than your opponent's offense but in this case you might as well not use it at all. Not only because your defenders should do fine in stopping attacks on their own but also because you're adding another "random % event" which can turn out at your disadvantage.

I voted for the 3rd option but I pretty much find offside trap useless either way.

It would only make the defensive line as weak as the weakest link in it. The offside rule is based on the position of a single player, not the "average of the back line".

I like the weighted average option simply because it is just as likely that the worst player is in front of the back line as it is he is behind it. The worst player won't always be leaving the forward onside, after all.

BTW I hope people aren't voting for the status quo just because their back lines have a weak link!

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Author Topic: Suggestion - offside calculation change (Read 3805 times)