Author Topic: POLL: costs and error in Team/Next Match Reports (Read 4770 times)

Brian Clough · « **on:** October 20, 2013, 06:52:08 PM »

IMHO team reports and next match reports are given too freely in the game (to premium managers) while next match reports (NMRs) are too accurate and do not rely on team scouts, de-emphasizing the utility of team scouts which already have limited use in the game. Here are my suggestions to alter this. Please vote for any you like (or the "none" option if you don't like any of them)

1) Team Reports and Next Match Reports should not be free, even for premium managers. These should cost some energy and nonpremium members should also have access to Team Reports at a higher cost. For example:

Energy Cost
Report Premium Nonpremium
Team 20 50
Next Match 40-200* NA
*depending on team scout analysis skill level (1=200, 2=160, 3=120, 4=80 and 5=40)

2) Next Match Reports (NMRs) should reflect the performance of players in the matches being reported on and the quality of team scouts. The idea is that these reports are created not from thin air, but by team scouts watching the matches and making value judgements about player abilities. There are two aspects here: (a) the players' actual performances and (b) the ability of team scouts to judge them accurately.

(a) In each of the 5 matches given in "next match report" feature, skill values should reflect player performance in the match, not their expected/average values. For example, a player with a 10 rating in a match probably displayed skills at the high end of their range, while one with a 4 rating exhibited skills at the low end of the range. Thus the values for a given player would vary from match to match, depending on their performances.

(b) The accuracy of these (actual) values of player skills given in a NMR should also be based on team scout "judge player ability" quality. For a team with scouts of very bad level, these figures should contain significant error, whie "the best" scouts will yield perfectly accurate reports.

Here is a full example of how this would work for one skill (e.g. action pass ball on floor, but it could be any) with skill level range of 51-55 given in player analysis:

Range of possible values in NMR given different "judge player ability" levels**
Match Rating Player Skill Level 1 2 3 4 5
10 55 44-66 49-61 52-58 54-56 55
4 51 40-62 45-57 48-54 50-52 51
max error 20% 10% 5% 2% 0%

**value given in NMR would not be a range of values like these, but a single value selected randomly from within the relevant spread.

top level · « **Reply #1 on:** October 20, 2013, 07:25:25 PM »

this poll is unfair and misleading, because you allow more than one answer. therefor, a user that wants things to be changed can select all 5 answers, while a user that likes things the way they are can select only one answer. so, when we have 2 users voting, one for change and one against the change, the results show that 16,6% of the votes want things to stay the way they are, while 83,4% want a change.

Brian, i understand you want things to change, but manipulation is not fair play.

Brian Clough · « **Reply #2 on:** October 20, 2013, 09:36:48 PM »

Quote from: top level on October 20, 2013, 07:25:25 PM

this poll is unfair and misleading, because you allow more than one answer. therefor, a user that wants things to be changed can select all 5 answers, while a user that likes things the way they are can select only one answer. so, when we have 2 users voting, one for change and one against the change, the results show that 16,6% of the votes want things to stay the way they are, while 83,4% want a change.

Brian, i understand you want things to change, but manipulation is not fair play.

well don't look at % of votes, just the numbers. % of votes has no relevance I think

ofc any poll here is not an accurate measure of GKO user opinions, but it can be a helpful indicator and a nice way to stimulate discussion

top level · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2013, 07:47:08 PM »

Kr10s · « **Reply #4 on:** October 22, 2013, 03:09:20 AM »

Fist of all, i like Brian's suggestions, more or less... there's only one thing i would be against: team report shouldn't be paid every time you want it, i think it would be okay to spend energy once, and get all the team reports you want that week. A team report can change drastically just switching a player, trying different combinations would be too expensive! Only one weekly payment should be enough IMO.

Quote from: top level on October 21, 2013, 07:47:08 PM

I other words, do you need premium features to defeat your oponents?

I am premium user, and i think that everything is handed over too easily, i didn't buy premium membership because i want an advantage against non premium. I already improved my physio to the max level (i am not willing to spend money on token to heal my players) and i think that reports shouldn't be that acurate, despite i plan to improve my scout to help the NT, i wouldn't mind to be pushed to improve my scout at all.

Why did i bought premium? Because i love the full GKO experience:

* I can see matches in a different way that a non premium user, and the premium model is more enjoyable. Honestly i would never return to the old "everything appears suddenly" model.
* The individual stats you get when a match ends, always helps me to understand the match and what things i need to improve.
* I am active in the game, and i like that my activity period receive some kind of reward, 100 energy points, recovering at a 10/hour rate is too low IMO, having extra energy to do activities is always welcome.
* Custom cups are not only a training/incomes resource to me, they are also another reason to play the game, a game where you could only play 2/3 matches per week is boring. More matches, more fun!
* I like the loan feature, a lot. Having the chance to send my players somewhere else to improve his skill is a great thing. I am not used to send undeveloped youth outside, those who gets my players usually gets an improvement to their squads. In other words, i scratch their back, and they scratch mine.

Now, do you think i am against the chance that non-premium users could get those feats?

* I think that non premium users should get players in loan deals, with some restriction to avoid cheating issues, but i think that feat would be helpful to all. Let only premium users to send their players if you want, but at least let non premium users receive players, whey would be in a closer fairer situation than now.
* Custom cup to non premium? Why not? Give them less income/exp but let them play, let them enjoy the game more times a week, is that so bad?
* That said, why they can't get team reports too? Let them have some kind of extra penalty, but allow them to receive info, at least their own squad's report!

In the way i look at it, all/most features available to non premium users and some extra privileges to premium users can coexist... it happens in most online managers, why couldn't be here?

Brian Clough · « **Reply #5 on:** October 22, 2013, 03:32:19 AM »

Quote from: top level on October 21, 2013, 07:47:08 PM

I hope you didn't misunderstand...I only suggested that team reports be available to nonpremium users (with an energy cost), not next match reports. We can get the same information with a decent excel file anyway. The real value is in the next match report, anyway.

Also don't expect admin to take any action based on ~20 votes!

Quote from: CarlosT on October 22, 2013, 03:09:20 AM

Fist of all, i like Brian's suggestions, more or less... there's only one thing i would be against: team report shouldn't be paid every time you want it, i think it would be okay to spend energy once, and get all the team reports you want that week. A team report can change drastically just switching a player, trying different combinations would be too expensive! Only one weekly payment should be enough IMO.

Yes that was the idea. Once one uses the energy for a report, it would be available (viewable) at no additional cost until the next match.

chefo · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2013, 10:24:02 AM »

Quote from: top level on October 21, 2013, 07:47:08 PM

So sad. Well at least its obvious that some of the people here actually buy premium for the advantages it gives and not because they enjoy and would like to support the game.

As I said in the very beginning when premium got released, it should be affordable for everyone and with less advantages. Thats how it is in all the successful managers out there.
Its simple actually, wouldnt it be better that 50% of the people have a balanced premium with a lower cost rather than 20% as it is now? Pretty sure the profit on your side will hardly change, it might even be beneficial. Not to mention there are tons of ways to make profit without giving in-game advantages but it'd require more work I suppose T_T

Anyhow its good that you're trying to keep the forum alive all tho its hardly unlikely that anything will change.

top level · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2013, 11:46:00 AM »

chefo · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:03:20 PM »

You're looking at the whole thing the wrong way. Didnt say anything about donations, the premium will still be active but with less advantages at a price that'd make it worth and affordable by everyone. It'd still offer all the features except the next match reports which are ridiculous and totally ruin the game experience and leaves no mystery around any team whatsoever and as others said non-premium should be able to enter custom cups created by premiums etc etc

If this is the only manager-game you've ever played there is no point explaining, cause you should know that no other popular manager offers so much unbalance in it's premium.

I suggest you stop reading between the lines or read a couple of times before posting anything

HSTEHSTE · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:05:16 PM »

I am a high school student who receive a monthly allowance from my parents. Therefore, there is no way I can afford to pay for any game I play. Some online games give huge advantages for paying players, and I never play these kinds of games cuz I can never compete with paying players. For GKO specifically, the current advantage premium uses have over us is still acceptable, not too big for me to play on. I would like to point out though that the game will be more attractive to me if there is less difference between the ways that premium and non-premium players are treated, so long it is viable for the game financially.

Kr10s · « **Reply #10 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:21:45 PM »

Do you know how much money developers got from ads? You would be really surprised if you see some stats... we had a long discussion about it sometime ago, believe it or not. The game generates more money thay you think.

Do you know why they offer ingame advantage and why premium membership/token are so expensive? Because having few unethical users paying ridiculously amounts of money to get advantage is far easier to have a free game, filled with many active users demanding more improvements.
Reality is: GKO is not competitive with the "big ones" because it's filled with users that wants to win at all cost, that doesn't care if the game brings more and more to all users.

The good thing is that most of these "unethical managers" mostly sucks, and even using premium account, hard tackling (and token to heal their injured players after "buying ball posession") can be defeated mostly easily. Do you know why? Because they never tries to improve on their own, they always rely on ingame advantage and that is their main weakness.

I also support the game, and you know what? I don't pay to get ingame advantage, i want improvements. Season 9 new look is a good start, but not enough. There are many thing unfinished, i would be happy to have them available ASAP, i would love to be treated like a fair customer, with a better feedback between developers/players, is that so much asking? I think we are mostly stuck because there are many people that doesn't claim for a better game, they only claims for ingame advantage... it's so sad.

top level · « **Reply #11 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:34:48 PM »

Kr10s · « **Reply #12 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:52:27 PM »

Quote from: top level on October 22, 2013, 12:34:48 PM

you talked about scouts skill influencing the report. so unfair!

Okay, sombody who defends ingame advantage paying claims that giving something similar than own team report to non premium is unfair? How ironic! You can know your rival squad a lot better than he does, just because you pay, and you claim that is fair? Just let him know his own squad a little better, you can know both teams, so you are still having your pathetic advantage, don't you get it?
And yes, i plan to upgrade my scout skill to judge player's ability, but not his analisys skill, so if i would want somebody else's report on a cheaper value, i would still be pushed to spend money in something i didn't planned.

"Developers have to eat" hahahaha! Can't stop laughing! My family also needs to eat, if i want to feed him, i need to work, do you see developers/admin working in the game? They are just milking us, open your eyes and realize it! Defend the advantage model if you want (you clearly need it), but don't waste bandwith defending them, because it doesn't worth at all!

If you stop paying/playing, nobody will miss you.
If those who wants a better/fairer game leaves, i can assure you that many people will miss them. Not only because they make the game more competitive, also because they are those who help newbies to improve/learn to play. If many of us wouldn't be here or we would only be concerned on having our own knowledge as an advantage, how the hell would you learn?

Think about it, those "developers who needs to eat" ignores you, they doesn't care if you don't catch the basics with their outdated game manual, if you suffer a game bug and your request remain unanswered, are you happy paying for that? Just to win few matches? Is that the GKO you want? To me is a pathetic scenario and i don't want it: it want my oponents becomes strong, that's why i share my experience with others, i want the game to run properly, not having to wake up 5AM to prepare a WCC match because training didn't update when it should, i want to have a game fully translated, so those who doesn't know english can set "pase" (means passing in spanish) and they don't set pace, receiving a different training outcome. I want to have the chance to store more than one formation and change it during a match, i want to corner kicks happens when the keeper turns the ball away. Is that so much to ask?

Sorry dude, i don't want an "easier" game, i want a "better" game.

shomyguca · « **Reply #13 on:** October 22, 2013, 02:42:52 PM »

Well, maybe this is not the right place to write about premium/nonpremium benefits. Anyway, the only thing that is NOT fair about premium is increased level of energy (to 200) and faster refilling for premium users. This makes the competition between premium and nonpremium users very unfair.
With 200 energy points which refills much faster, premium users could play all competitions with only one lineup (11 players)! Consequently, players of premium managers are improving faster, due to a lot of matches played.
On the other side, if you are nonpremium user, you should have 2 equally strong lineups (22 high quality players) to play all possible competitions (league, cup, WCL and NT matches).
I understand that premium users should have some benefits for their money, but this energy benefit makes the game too unfair! Please think about possibility to equalize energy level and refill time for all users!

Brian Clough · « **Reply #14 on:** October 22, 2013, 05:39:47 PM »

Yes, my whole point is that the amount of in-game advantages for premium users should be reduced and developers should focus on developing other premium features that do not bestow advantages over nonpremium managers. According to the developers of another well-known online manager game, premium features should "not give your team any in-game advantages, but rather deepen your experience of the game".

There are many other possibilities that do not give in-game advantages such as:

- Ability to manage national teams that are currently managed by bots
- Ability to manage multiple teams (already ok for premium members but often overlooked as a feature)
- Multiple lineups/formations
- Training report archives/graphs
- Performance graphs
- Injuries (both match and training) listed in player histories
- Block users in national chatrooms or better filters
- Arena editor (change pitch dimensions, arena look/style)
- Club hall of fame
- Premium transfer search features (new LA filters, boolean searches [using AND, NOT, or OR], saved filters [could be made a premium feature], hotlist [players with most interest in market], etc.)
- Increased % of revenue from transfers (e.g. an extra 5% for premium users)

...and so on. To be clear, I am not only suggesting that premium reports or other features that give in-game advantages should be reduced or come with costs. In their place, other features should be included that deepen the game experience without providing stark advantages over nonpremium users.

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Author Topic: POLL: costs and error in Team/Next Match Reports (Read 4770 times)